Help with planning home network

[follower]

Here's what I learned when designing network for my new house.
CAT6/CAT6A cable is super cheap, run it everywhere and often =P
un-shielded

if the runs are under 75ft, they will be ready to run 10GB (the longest run in my house is 51ft) in the future

all WAPs should be POE and wired backhaul (all WAPs should have 2.5gbit hardwire LAN connection sockets minimum)

always run two cables for each location

hardwire absolutely everything that is practical to hardwire (TV's, Apple TV's, Fire cubes, Fire TVs, desktops, etc etc) (if you're putting in recessed electrical in the wall for mounted TVs, run 2 Ethernet cables nearby, you'll need them) e.g. in the room I use as my office there are 6 runs. (2 locations 3 runs each). Let the wired portion of your network do as much of the work as possible, with the WiFi providing connectivity for portable devices (phones, tablets, laptops) additionally, I personally prefer Apple TV 4k's because the interface is just so much faster than the TV itself, and Fire and Roku TVs constantly bitch and moan if they aren't connected, so I hardwired them...

in rooms where things might move around, run Ethernet to 2 locations (again always 2 per run, so in a room with 2 locations that's 4 cables)

2.5gbit with POE switches are going to be expensive even if they are unmanaged. if you want to run VLANS you must use managed switches.

it's worth the time and investment to mount a network rack with a dedicated patch panel, and label everything, spend the money upfront for a 24-port or 48-port patch panel, it's a bitch to replace it later

i personally believe that its good to choose a single platform and have all your hardware on that platform, e.g. cisco, zyxel (nebula), tp-link (omada). I personally went with Zyxel.

don't use ISP supplied hardware if possible, this may not be possible with AT&T Fiber for example, but at least you can configure theirs to just passthrough to your own router.

I chose to go with pfsense for routing, and built my own machine for that purpose, i value the ability to have total control over the gateway

with the speed of networks today, even if you're only on 1gbit, i see no need to physically segment out a "mancave" network. How much bandwidth could you expect to suck up on that? Keep in mind a 4k HDR stream is roughly 25Mbit as a reference

Chinese low quality UTP cables are dirty cheap. There are so many those cheap cables at Amazon. But quality CAT.5e SFTP, CAT.6a and CAT.7 are not cheap compared with cheap cables. Normal home users don't need expensive quality cables though.
Quality CAT.6a: over $500 per 1000ft(300m)
Quality CAT.6: over $120 per1000ft(300m)
Quality CAT.5e SFTP: over $300 per 1000ft(300m)

 

[drinkingbird]

Chinese low quality UTP cables are dirty cheap. There are so many those cheap cables at Amazon. But quality CAT.5e SFTP, CAT.6a and CAT.7 are not cheap compared with cheap cables. Normal home users don't need expensive quality cables though.
Quality CAT.6a: over $500 per 1000ft(300m)
Quality CAT.6: over $120 per1000ft(300m)
Quality CAT.5e SFTP: over $300 per 1000ft(300m)

Not really any reason to do SFTP on CAT5E (and it is pretty rare). STP maybe, but really no reason to go CAT5e at all these days, in many cases it is more expensive than CAT6 since nobody buys it.

The vast majority of home users, when running in wall cable, can use Monoprice Cat6A and be fine. $260 for 1000 feet and it isn't even CCA (which for in wall use, is also fine).

 

[tgl]

The vast majority of home users, when running in wall cable, can use Monoprice Cat6A and be fine. $260 for 1000 feet and it isn't even CCA (which for in wall use, is also fine).

Yeah. I got a 500ft roll of Monoprice 6A for $110 from Amazon, and it works fine at 10Gbps (admittedly, the run's only perhaps 40ft).

The bigger picture here though is: if you're taking the trouble to put in in-wall cables, it's penny-wise-pound-foolish to not use the best cable you can lay your hands on. Ten years from now you'll be glad you did, because your performance expectations will be greater. And the labor involved in running the cable will certainly be more than the price of the cable.

(I'm not quite sure I buy the upthread advice to pull two cables everywhere, but it's a defensible suggestion. Cables do fail.)

 

[drinkingbird]

Yeah. I got a 500ft roll of Monoprice 6A for $110 from Amazon, and it works fine at 10Gbps (admittedly, the run's only perhaps 40ft).

The bigger picture here though is: if you're taking the trouble to put in in-wall cables, it's penny-wise-pound-foolish to not use the best cable you can lay your hands on. Ten years from now you'll be glad you did, because your performance expectations will be greater. And the labor involved in running the cable will certainly be more than the price of the cable.

(I'm not quite sure I buy the upthread advice to pull two cables everywhere, but it's a defensible suggestion. Cables do fail.)

Eh, in 10 years CAT6a will be obsolete anyway. What I would recommend is run the in wall cable ducts and pull the cables through that so you can replace when needed (due to obsolescence or failure). I did that for all mine when I renovated. I lucked out and got 2000' of Panduit CAT6A on ebay for some stupid low price years ago but I'd have no hesitation running Monoprice or Southwire (home depot stuff) or whatever, since if something fails I can pull through a new one easily. I live near a Comcast warehouse and they give me all the partial spools of Cat6 and coax I want (never hurts to ask at your local one). There will only be 50 to 200 feet left on each spool but a bunch of spools is just what you need to wire a house, some runs are shorter, some are longer.

Dropping $0.50 to $1 per foot cable in your wall (best you can get) does not make sense, especially when that cable will be obsolete at some point. The ducting is cheap by comparison and much more future proof.

I've got one 6A, one 5e (that's what they were giving away when I renovated) and one quad shield RG6 to each box, and 2 boxes per room. The 5e being for phone but in reality that is already obsolete, everyone just has a single phone now with wireless handsets (if they have a phone at all). Then I picked 4 areas where a modem or router would be placed and ran a second 6A to those for the WAN connection.

 

[follower]

Not really any reason to do SFTP on CAT5E (and it is pretty rare). STP maybe, but really no reason to go CAT5e at all these days, in many cases it is more expensive than CAT6 since nobody buys it.

The vast majority of home users, when running in wall cable, can use Monoprice Cat6A and be fine. $260 for 1000 feet and it isn't even CCA (which for in wall use, is also fine).

I don't think so. CAT.5E is cheaper than CAT.6. There is no reason to buy CAT.6 for normal home users. CAT.5e works very well even with 10gb in 50m. I have CAT.8, CAT.7, CAT.6a, CAT.6, CAT.5e SFTP, CAT.5e FTP, CAT.5e Rolls and Premade cables. I don't feel any difference in short range. Why I use them? It's just for self satisfaction. I still have a lot of cables(some Kilometers) and rj45 modules. I used to play with them for a fun. However I don't play with them anymore. Terminating cables are bothering me a lot. I lost interest. I still have them but I buy premade cables too.

 

[drinkingbird]

I don't think so. CAT.5E is cheaper than CAT.6. There is no reason to buy CAT.6 for normal home users. CAT.5e works very well even with 10gb in 50m. I have CAT.8, CAT.7, CAT.6a, CAT.6, CAT.5e SFTP, CAT.5e FTP, CAT.5e Rolls and Premade cables. I don't feel any difference in short range. Why I use them? It's just for self satisfaction. I still have a lot of cables(some Kilometers) and rj45 modules. I used to play with them for a fun. However I don't play with them anymore. Terminating cables are bothering me a lot. I lost interest. I still have them but I buy premade cables too.

CAT5e may appear to work for 10G at short distances but there is a lot of packet loss so you'll never hit the full 9.5ish gig and will have latency. Have tested it, even at 10 feet. Cat6 is even problematic, if the environment has no noise at all you might get 50 to 100 feet, but in reality 30 to 50 before it starts suffering packet loss. You can find places that sell cat5e cheaper than cat 6 but you can then find another place that is selling cat6 for less than the first place is selling 5e. It is supply and demand, the demand is for 6 and up thus it is cheaper. There is 0 reason to buy a spool (or patch) of 5e these days, even for home users. Monoprice 5e is $5 more per spool than 6. Most of the pro brands don't even sell 5e anymore.

If 10G is in your plans, stick with 6a, the price difference is minimal. And make sure it is real 6a, 23 awg. There are several varieties available ranging 500 to 600mhz. The best is the stuff with each pair foil shielded, but most these days just have an overall foil shield and typically rated for 500 or 550, which is still plenty for 10G.

For patch cables I'll do premade but obviously if running through walls or even just need a custom length or long cable I'll terminate it myself.

A lot of the cat 7 and 8 out there is bogus, have to pay close attention to the specs.

 

[follower]

CAT5e may appear to work for 10G at short distances but there is a lot of packet loss so you'll never hit the full 9.5ish gig and will have latency.

I've tested it for 50m long time ago, around 9000mbps. There was no packet loss at all.

Most of the pro brands don't even sell 5e anymore.

That's not true. They are still producing and selling CAT.5e a lot.

If 10G is in your plans, stick with 6a, the price difference is minimal. And make sure it is real 6a, 23 awg.

My network system is 10gb with CAT.7 and CAT.6a already. It's useless though.

 

[drinkingbird]

I've tested it for 50m long time ago, around 900mbps. There was no packet loss at all.

900M over a 10G link is severe packet loss. I've tested it with pro gear (smartbits) and at 10 feet the loss at 10G was significant. High PPS (small frames) was a lot worse but normal and jumbo frames also showed loss. And this was with a pro data center patch cable, was either panduit or commscope, don't recall.

That's not true. They are still producing and selling CAT.5e a lot.

Not the pro brands. With the exception of some specialty stuff (direct burial with high pair counts, large gauge for high wattage POE, etc) it isn't even in their ordering systems anymore. Can find some old stock from various resellers.

 

[follower]

900M over a 10G link is severe packet loss. I've tested it with pro gear (smartbits) and at 10 feet the loss at 10G was significant. High PPS (small frames) was a lot worse but normal and jumbo frames also showed loss. And this was with a pro data center patch cable, was either panduit or commscope, don't recall.

You are talking about different things.

Not the pro brands. With the exception of some specialty stuff (direct burial with high pair counts, large gauge for high wattage POE, etc) it isn't even in their ordering systems anymore. Can find some old stock from various resellers.

No, that's not true. They are still producing and selling. Does it mean they don't produce CAT.5E because you can't see them in their ordering systems? I don't understand what you are talking about.

 

[drinkingbird]

You are talking about different things.

I'm talking about whether cat5e can handle 10G fine like you claim. But you were only able to push under a gig over it. That's not fine.

No, that's not true. They are still producing and selling. Does it mean they don't produce CAT.5E because you can't see them in their ordering systems? I don't understand what you are talking about.

So they make it but don't sell it? Maybe they sell it to 3rd world countries or something. Regardless, nobody is using 5e anymore and 6 can be gotten cheaper so there is no reason to.

 

[follower]

I'm talking about whether cat5e can handle 10G fine like you claim. But you were only able to push under a gig over it. That's not fine.

I'm so sorry. It was 10gb. I'll fix it>I fixed 900 to 9000.

So they make it but don't sell it? Maybe they sell it to 3rd world countries or something. Regardless, nobody is using 5e anymore and 6 can be gotten cheaper so there is no reason to.

They make and sell it. They sell it to everywhere like USA, UK, EU including 3rd world. A lot of users are using CAT.5e than CAT.6.
The following link is for Structured Cabling. Homes users are different from Structured Cabling Market.

Global.

USA.

Structured Cabling Market Size & Share Report [2022-2029]

The global structured cabling market is projected to reach USD 21.48 billion by 2029, at a CAGR of 9.2%. Global market comprised a 52.8% share from Cat 6 segment in 2021

www.fortunebusinessinsights.com

Internet Speed.(USA)
ISPs still bring more CAT.5e than CAT.6 for normal connections in the states. ATT cable guys brought CAT.5E to my friend's home(LA) about 2 months ago. They are still using CAT.5E in most cases.

United States's Mobile and Broadband Internet Speeds - Speedtest Global Index

United States ranked 11th in the world for mobile speeds and 6th for fixed broadband speeds during February 2024.

www.speedtest.net

Internet Speeds: USA vs. The Rest of the World - Tachus Fiber Internet

The United States is climbing the global ranking for internet speeds. But many of its communities have been left behind. Here's what can be done about that.

www.tachus.com

 

[drinkingbird]

I'm so sorry. It was 10gb. I'll fix it>I fixed 900 to 9000.

So still about 500M short, likely caused by packet loss. Perhaps SFTP or FTP Cat5e can do it at short distances and with good terminations (i.e. cat 6 ends with staggered pins), since that's one of the main things that 6a adds to prevent crosstalk, but why would you pay a ton for that when you can get 6 or 6e much cheaper? You can get 6 cheaper than plan 5e, and 6a for not much more than 6.

Long story short, 5e is not rated for the frequencies that 10G uses, so why would you spend money on it for use with 10G?

They make and sell it. They sell it to everywhere like USA, UK, EU including 3rd world. A lot of users are using CAT.5e than CAT.6.
The following link is for Structured Cabling. Homes users are different from Structured Cabling Market.

Not disagreeing that 5e is still produced by some manufacturers. The major ones that supply data centers, corporate offices, etc haven't had it in their systems for several years now. They make some specialty stuff that is still 5e and probably produce it for other countries.

Around here, even Xfinity and Verizon have been using 6 for many years. The only 5e I've seen them use is the outdoor rated stuff for when they run it up the side of a house etc.

We run our own data centers and also partner with Equinix, Cyxtera, Digital Realty, and a few other smaller regional ones. Have not seen a new CAT5e run or patch in a decade or more.

 

[RacerX330]

Chinese low quality UTP cables are dirty cheap. There are so many those cheap cables at Amazon. But quality CAT.5e SFTP, CAT.6a and CAT.7 are not cheap compared with cheap cables. Normal home users don't need expensive quality cables though.
Quality CAT.6a: over $500 per 1000ft(300m)
Quality CAT.6: over $120 per1000ft(300m)
Quality CAT.5e SFTP: over $300 per 1000ft(300m)

Honestly, I think some folks here like to nitpick for the sake of having something to say. The point was........that the cost of 1000ft of cable when you're spending multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars building a house is not even pennies, it's a rounding error. And yes it's been a while since I bought a 1000ft of panduit cable, the last time I bought a pull-box it was something like $350

 

[RacerX330]

I have personally, never heard of anyone having a problem running 10gbit over quality CAT6 cable for run under 150ft. Since I don't have any nearly that long, this is not a worry for me. Unless you're building a 4000 or 5000 sqft home, you'll never have runs that long.

 

[drinkingbird]

Honestly, I think some folks here like to nitpick for the sake of having something to say. The point was........that the cost of 1000ft of cable when you're spending multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars building a house is not even pennies, it's a rounding error. And yes it's been a while since I bought a 1000ft of panduit cable, the last time I bought a pull-box it was something like $350

It is all over the place price wise, I got lucky and have a couple spools of FFTP 6A of theirs that I got surplus for dirt cheap. If you keep an eye out sometimes you can find good deals on ebay or craigslist from a surplus reseller.

 

[drinkingbird]

I have personally, never heard of anyone having a problem running 10gbit over quality CAT6 cable for run under 150ft. Since I don't have any nearly that long, this is not a worry for me. Unless you're building a 4000 or 5000 sqft home, you'll never have runs that long.

You're contradicting yourself, the cable cost is a rounding error, but save a few bucks and potentially have problems? 10G will run over CAT6 and it is rated for it but only at partial length and that length depends heavily on the environment.

I'd rather run monoprice 6A than panduit 6.

 

[RacerX330]

You're contradicting yourself, the cable cost is a rounding error, but save a few bucks and potentially have problems? 10G will run over CAT6 and it is rated for it but only at partial length and that length depends heavily on the environment.

I'd rather run monoprice 6A than panduit 6.

Get out of your own head friend. I never said buy cheap cable, and we're talking about residential not data center. Good grief.

 

[drinkingbird]

Get out of your own head friend. I never said buy cheap cable, and we're talking about residential not data center. Good grief.

First you said buy the best cable as the cost is just rounding error, then you said just run Cat6 as it will run 10G at short distances. Just don't understand what you're recommending. I agree with your original statement, if you're spending hundreds of thousands building a house, put in cable that is up to spec and will be somewhat future proof (and my preference is to also do it in such a way that you can pull through new cable when the need arises).

 

[RacerX330]

First you said buy the best cable as the cost is just rounding error, then you said just run Cat6 as it will run 10G at short distances. Just don't understand what you're recommending. I agree with your original statement, if you're spending hundreds of thousands building a house, put in cable that is up to spec and will be somewhat future proof (and my preference is to also do it in such a way that you can pull through new cable when the need arises).

you are tiresome. the words "just use Cat6" were never posted by me, and since i never said that, the basis of your question is flawed and unanswerable. perhaps reviewing my original post will help you, hint it literally says "Cat6/Cat6A". I gave the reader the benefit of the doubt that they were intelligent enough to take that information and either do their own research to determine if that means their needs or ask for further detail.

 

[drinkingbird]

you are tiresome.

Who even says that? Are you wearing a monocle sipping tea?

the words "just use Cat6" were never posted by me, and since i never said that, the basis of your question is flawed and unanswerable. perhaps reviewing my original post will help you, hint it literally says "Cat6/Cat6A". I gave the reader the benefit of the doubt that they were intelligent enough to take that information and either do their own research to determine if that means their needs or ask for further detail.

I literally quote the posts of yours which I'm replying to, it was nothing to do with the first post. You're right, most readers are intelligent enough to interpret those two most recent posts as contradicting each other. I guess not all writers are as intelligent though.

If you want every reply to be "you're right, end of story, no comment" then the internet is not the right place for you. They're called discussion forums for a reason.