MESH replacement options - XenWifi/Unifi/etc

[webreaper]

Hi all, this might overlap with some of the other threads, but looking for a higher-level opinion on an upgrade to my current network.

Current State:
I'm currently running an AC86U with two AC68Us as MESH nodes, all running Asus-Merlin.

• The AC86U is the main router and sits in the lounge, next to the modem.
• The AC68U in my office, which connects to the AC86U via a 2Gbps powerline link. This provides stronger wifi at the office end of the house, and also has an ethernet connection to my Synology NAS.
• The AC68U in my shed, which connects to the AC86U via a loooong ethernet backhaul, and provides wifi coverage for some of the garden

I have several wifi cameras around the property, mostly Reolink, connected to Synology Surveillance station. They're for a bit of security, but ostensibly as wildlife cameras in the garden. I run a VPN server on the AC68U for remote access (OVPN - but I'd really prefer to upgrade to Wireguard), and also a guest network; we have terrible cell coverage where I live, so everyone who visits needs to use it for wifi calling, internet etc. Probably got about 40 clients in total, ranging from Macbooks, to Phones, to various IoT devices.

I work from home 100% of the time, so need a reliable connection. We're pretty rural, so our internet connection is pretty rubbish - we only have FTTC, with 38 down, 7 up - and we're not on the Openreach FTTP built-out plan yet, so no prospect of significantly faster connection in the next couple of years. However, I'm finding the Asus getting more and more unreliable, with unexpected wifi drops, shaky connections. So I'm thinking that upgrading to something more modern might help with performance, coverage in the garden, and general reliability.

Options I'm considering:
I was looking at the Asus Zenwifi XT8, as it seems simple, and the 5ghz dedicated backhaul might mean I could ditch the Powerline in the house. However, I've read various stuff saying it has all sorts of problems, and some friends recommended I look at Ubiquiti Unifi, as it's more solid and bullet-proof. However, their range seems very broad and not entirely intuitive.... wondering if people can help. I think I want:

• UbiQuiti UX7 as the main router and network controller in the lounge
• Another AP in the office, to which I'd connect the NAS, and which would give stronger Wifi at that end of the house. Something like UbiQuiti U6-IW?
• Something like a U7 Outdoor or UAP-AC-M UniFi AC Outdoor Mesh - to give better wifi coverage across the garden for the cameras.

But... I'm not sure about the right combination of bits to buy. I don't really want to wall-mount the AP the office, so unsure if the Wall AP is the right thing to buy. Can somebody familiar with their product range direct me to what would work best together? Also, I gather you need some sort of Cloud Key manager or something, but I think that's built into the UX7 - but not really sure.

Are there any other systems I should look at? My main priorities are ease of setup, features (VPN + guest network etc), and reliability. I'd like to not have to power-cycle the routers on a regular basis.

Budget-wise: could go up to £750 for the whole setup if required, but would prefer to keep it cheaper than that.

Oh, and just to avoid going off at tangents:

• I'm not looking to put ethernet in for the lounge/office connection - my time and budget doesn't stretch to chasing cables into walls at the moment. So powerline is the best compromise. May hardware ethernet in future
• The garden cameras can't be hard-wired for various reasons, so must run through wifi.

Thanks for any help and advice that people can give!

 

[Tech9]

I work from home 100% of the time, so need a reliable connection.

You can do all of the above with 3x UX7 units and 2x USW-Flex-2.5G-5 switches from Ubiquiti. What you get is up to 2.5GbE WAN (with IDS), 4x 2.5GbE LAN ports at Modem and Office locations, tri-band Wi-Fi 7 on all APs. Relatively user-friendly single dashboard for all devices with total LAN and WLAN control. Cost £555 + VAT as per Ubiquiti UK Store. None of the devices uses PoE, all have USB-C power adapters included. Good fit for home installation, keeps the cost down (PoE switches are expensive).

UX7 at the Modem - Gateway, Controller, Access Point + Switch 1
UX7 at the Office - Access Point + Switch 2
UX7 at the Shed - Access Point

UniFi Express 7 - Ubiquiti Store

Mesh-scalable, super-compact 10G Cloud Gateway with integrated WiFi 7.

uk.store.ui.com

Switch Flex Mini 2.5G - Ubiquiti Store

Compact, 5-port 2.5G switch that can be powered with PoE or a USB-C adapter.

uk.store.ui.com

Why 3x UX7 units including as AP?
- all the same APs with the same features
- compact and nice looking, high wife acceptance factor
- have included power adapters, don't require PoE
- equivalent to U7 Pro access point Wi-Fi at similar price
- desktop style with omnidirectional antennas, can be placed anywhere

Why USW-Flex-2.5G-5 switches?
- low cost option without PoE
- compact and nice looking, high wife acceptance factor
- have included power adapters, don't require PoE
- desktop style, can be placed anywhere (even hidden behind the furniture)

Play with UniFi Design Center first to get an idea of expected coverage area:

UniFi Design Center

Simulate a complete UniFi system with our powerful visualization and planning tool.

design.ui.com

The more accurate you draw the walls and select the materials the closer to real life the heat map will be.

Forget about anything ZenWiFi...
Your PLA adapters are weak/slow link. Explore Ethernet link options. Thin/flat Ethernet cables are available.

Your APs in the UK will be limited to 20dBm (100mW) on 2.4GHz band, 23dBm (200mW) on 5GHz non-DFS band and 24dBm (250mW) on 6GHz band (double check) as per local power limits for Wi-Fi. The same for any other Wi-Fi equipment you purchase in the UK.

Good luck!

 

[tgl]

I like UniFi's APs, and switched to them from ASUS gear myself. However, I would warn against expecting that UniFi APs will give more coverage than the same number of ASUS APs. WiFi coverage is largely limited by the laws of physics and local radio regulations. So I think you need to be thinking about more APs, not necessarily different APs.

Having said that, switching to UniFi (or other SMB-focused makes) can be a good idea once you realize that you need more than about 3 APs. That's because they will sell you things that are just APs, as opposed to wanting to sell you multiple full-on routers. So at least in principle you're saving money by not buying hardware you don't need. The SMB makes are also focused very directly on multi-AP installations, and so they put more effort into smooth cross-AP roaming than typical consumer gear, which might be something that isn't working too well for you right now.

Also, anybody who knows this stuff will tell you to avoid wireless backhaul (commonly miscalled "meshing") if there is any way you can. Your current setup with one ethernet backhaul and one powerline backhaul is good, but if you are needing to fill in more APs, I wonder whether you have the ability to run additional cables to where you want to put APs.

BTW, I'm curious what powerline gear you're using exactly? I'd not heard of such gear that could achieve anything close to 2Gbps.

 

[Tech9]

However, I would warn against expecting that UniFi APs will give more coverage than the same number of ASUS APs.

More - no. About the same - probably. UX7 has surprisingly good 5GHz range with up to 26dBm* power and 7dBi** antennas. For 2.4GHz - all limited to 20dBm, it is what it is. For 6GHz in a solid construction home - the room, through one light wall eventually.

* - allowed in DFS in the UK
** - higher gain antennas require more precise AP positioning

 

[tgl]

After thinking about this a bit longer: if your internet connection will be no better than 40Mbps for the foreseeable future, you're really wasting money to buy high-end or even medium-grade network equipment. I might still agree with @Tech9 about choosing the UX7 for your router, because UniFi's very bottom-end gateways (the UCG-Ultra and UX) have a reputation for being so underpowered that they don't even run the management GUI snappily. But I'd go with bottom-of-the-line APs to extend the network. The new U7 Lite looks like an absolute steal at 99USD, or if wife won't go for a ceiling-mounted saucer, maybe U6 Mesh APs. These are enough cheaper than other UniFi offerings that you could afford to buy more of them, and I think you'd be happier thanks to better coverage. By the time you have access to a faster internet connection, none of this stuff will be the new hotness, and then it'll be time enough to upgrade.

(By the same token, I think my reflexive dislike for wireless backhaul might not be all that relevant to your situation. The backhaul likely won't be the bottleneck anyway.)

 

[Tech9]

UniFi's very bottom-end gateways (the UCG-Ultra and UX) have a reputation for being so underpowered that they don't even run the management GUI snappily.

UX as Gateway + AP - yes, dual-core CPU and 1GB RAM. UX as AP only - no, as any other UniFi AP. UCG-Ultra as Gateway - no, quad-core CPU with 3GB RAM. I have both, the UX UI lags indeed, UCG-Ultra UI is nice and fluid.

The reason I don't recommend UCG-Ultra in this specific case is the fact additional switches, access points or power injectors needed just increase the cost. The UCG-Ultra is more than enough for Gigabit ISP and cheap, but whatever is connected to it after won't be.

 

[tgl]

I have both, the UX UI lags indeed, UCG-Ultra UI is nice and fluid.

Ah, I was misremembering, thanks for the correction.

 

[Tech9]

The new U7 Lite looks like an absolute steal at 99USD, or if wife won't go for a ceiling-mounted saucer, maybe U6 Mesh APs.

I've looked at the UK prices. U7 Lite is £79 plus requires additional PoE switch or PoE injector (extra cost), plus it's dual-band and not really Wi-Fi 7, plus for best performance needs wall/ceiling mounting. Too many inconveniences just because the unit itself is cheap. U6-Mesh is excellent, this is what I use everywhere on my networks, but expensive for dual-band Wi-Fi 6 at £140.

 

[tgl]

Valid point about U7 Lite needing a PoE injector (although those are pretty cheap if you buy generic). But I think you are arguing that UX7s have better overall price/performance ratio, while my point is that the extra performance is irrelevant to the OP until he can get a better internet connection. Therefore he won't get return from spending more than he absolutely has to on the APs. The time frame until he might get return from better APs sounds to be long enough that U7-anything will be obsolete by then, so I don't think an attempt at future-proofing is warranted.

 

[Tech9]

the extra performance is irrelevant

Correct. I personally would go with better APs Gigabit system, but this is me. This is what I did three times already, the user experience is excellent. I prefer universal APs with desk/wall/outdoor use options and 4-stream 5GHz radios.

Gateway:

Cloud Gateway Ultra - Ubiquiti Store

Compact Cloud Gateway with 30+ UniFi device / 300+ client support, 1 Gbps IPS routing, and multi-WAN load balancing.

uk.store.ui.com

3x omnidirectional APs:

Access Point U6 Mesh - Ubiquiti Store

Sleek, indoor/outdoor WiFi 6 AP with 6 spatial streams designed for mesh applications.

uk.store.ui.com

Small switch for the Office:

Switch Flex Mini - Ubiquiti Store

A compact, 5-port, Layer 2 switch that can be powered with PoE or a 5V USB-C adapter.

uk.store.ui.com

...total £522 + VAT.

The Gateway will be bored with 40Mbps ISP line. The Internal network can do Gigabit wired and around 800Mbps to 2-stream AX client. It's a well balanced system, 4-stream radios may penetrate walls better in the UK, I don't know. I have this exact system (UCG-Ultra + 2x U6-Mesh, no switch) working well in Spain. Bungalow about 140m2, some coverage around as well.

I also don't like mix-and-match. All my home use APs are the same (UniFi), all my business use APs are the same (Cisco).

 

[tgl]

Fair enough. We're down to matters of opinion at this point, and I think we've given enough info for the OP to form his own opinion.

 

[Tech9]

Indeed and the budget of £750 is enough.

 

[webreaper]

Wow. Thanks for all the detailed info - this is really useful, and I'll go and digest. It does seem like getting a couple of UX7s will be simplest and most consistent/easiest to set up. I think the only thing I'd change about that is that I don't really want the access point in the shed, I want it on the outside of the shed, so the garden gets max coverage. So perhaps something like this: https://techspecs.ui.com/unifi/wifi/u7-outdoor will do better.

I'll also play around with the design centre - that looks very cool indeed. Thank you!

 

[Tech9]

So perhaps something like this:

Possible and better for this application, but you have to use the external omnidirectional antennas (included). The internal high-gain antennas are with 90° (2.4GHz) and 45° (5GHz) beam. It also needs PoE+ injector (£11), outdoor surge protector is good to have (£10) and this brings the price up to £180 for this device.

UniFi PoE+ Adapter (30W) - Ubiquiti Store

An adapter that can power UniFi PoE+ devices, reduce dependency on PoE switch power, and provide a Gigabit LAN connection.

uk.store.ui.com

Ethernet Surge Protection Outdoor (10kA) - Ubiquiti Store

ESD protection for outdoor high-speed networks.

uk.store.ui.com

 

[webreaper]

Yeah, I'm currently lusting after the U7 Outdoor Pro - which would give amazing coverage over the whole garden (and a large proportion of our village.....!)

 

[Tech9]

which would give amazing coverage

Not really. Your power per band will be still restricted, potential range advantage may come for higher gain external antennas and 4-stream 5GHz radio. Ubiquiti offers large range of products, there is always something with better specifications. Don't overpay for hardware.

 

[Tech9]

Actually, the more I look at it the whole Wi-Fi 7 idea… for your specific needs it seems totally wrong to me. I can explain why later.

 

[webreaper]

Not really. Your power per band will be still restricted, potential range advantage may come for higher gain external antennas and 4-stream 5GHz radio. Ubiquiti offers large range of products, there is always something with better specifications. Don't overpay for hardware.

Yeah, I said I was lusting after it. I'm not actually going to buy one.

Actually, the more I look at it the whole Wi-Fi 7 idea… for your specific needs it seems totally wrong to me. I can explain why later.

I tend to agree - although I like the idea of being somewhat future-proofed. But interested to hear specifics from you (and which product alternatives I should consider) when you have time.

 

[webreaper]

So, a couple of specific product questions:

1. Seems to me like a Dream Router 7 is going to work out cheaper than a UX + Flex Mini 2.5G. Any reason not to go this route? It has 4 ethernet ports so saves me needing a separate switch.
2. For the office, feels like a U6 Pro would do the job, combined with a Flex Mini 2.5G to give me additional ports. Cheaper than a second UX7. Sensible?
3. If I get the U7 Pro Outdoor, with the omni aerial, it's the only thing that - according to Unifi Design - will cover my entire garden for all my cameras. It's expensive, but seems worth it. I'd connect it in the shed via another Flex, which is cheap.

So I'd end up with:

• Dream Router 7 (Lounge)
• U6 Pro + Flex Mini 2.5G (office)
• U7 Pro Outdoor + Flex Mini 2.5G (shed)

Total cost approx £770. Does this look insane?

Could swap for a Dream Router (6) but they seem to be unavailable now, and anywhere that's selling them is more expensive anyway. I know I don't need Wifi 7, but the cost isn't that difference, whereas the coverage (according to design.ui.com) and signal strength is better - presumably because of stronger transmitters.

 

[webreaper]

BTW, I'm curious what powerline gear you're using exactly? I'd not heard of such gear that could achieve anything close to 2Gbps.

Realised I didn't reply to this. I'm using a pair of these: https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B01FFBN4MO?tag=smallncom-21 - bought back in 2018. Doesn't seem like anyone's made anything faster since then. Obviously you don't actually get 2Gbps, but you probably get nearly a 1Gbps if the run isn't too long.

I actually have both ends connected to the AC backup sockets for my Solis inverter - so the network connection goes via the inverter. Works just fine - and continues running if I get a power cut!