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NETGEAR Stealthily Goes Public With Its Draft 11ax Routers

Discussion in 'NETGEAR AX Wireless' started by thiggins, Nov 7, 2018.

  1. Razor512

    Razor512 Senior Member

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    Many routers are increasingly adding features that require more RAM, e.g., some will add services like plex, and routers such as the AC2600 from Synology, have even moved to have a package center. With users wanting to do more with these products, even 2GB of RAM may be lacking.

    One potential good use could be to have the router also function as a Plex server, NVR, NAS, VPN server, VPN client, Downloader (for various services, torrents, ftp, etc.). This can work especially well if they can make a cheap 4+ drive RAID enclosure that can be connector to the router, or make the router a little thicker and add 2 HDD bays and combine the features of their 2 bay ReadyNAS with their router.

    High end routers these days are not exactly priced such that adding extra RAM will break the bank.
     
    L&LD and Vexira like this.
  2. sfx2000

    sfx2000 Part of the Furniture

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    Current state of the art with ARM based SoC's - consider smartphones for example, no worries about address and data lines...

    I wouldn't be surprised one bit if 2019 brings us consumer Router/AP's with 4 or even 8 discrete memory devices for RAM, and more emphasis on eMMC, or even NVME for the flash side on the high end...

    It's going to be a bit of a requirement with N-Base-T and multiple 11ax radios to keep bandwidth happy... not just with pure SW based routing, but also with HW acceleration there to keep those units fed..
     
  3. Peter_M

    Peter_M New Around Here

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    Hi all,

    The thing with more memory in routers and switches reminds me of the buffer-bloat problem. Nobody was aware of it until Jim Gettys put its nose on it in 2010. The problem is : the part of the memory that is used as cache must allow to retrieve information faster than the requests to access it. If not your connection will slow down.

    I've found a test that include the Bufferbloat test: dslreports.com

    ps: can't wait to get my hands on one of those AX routers. Right now I'm Netgear, but the option is open. Will see.
     
    Vexira likes this.
  4. RMerlin

    RMerlin Super Moderator

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    eMMC might be nice, especially if routers increase the trend of storing local data (active logfiles, more complex config data, client/service databases, etc...). It will amount to a matter of cost in the end IMHO.

    However if manufacturers are to increase the BOM, I suspect money would be better spent in going 2.5/5 GBps Ethernet than in increasing the RAM beyond the current need. The former will translate into actual performance gains (especially as ISPs are starting to go beyond 1 Gbps now), and the silicon is already there (the BCM4908 supports 2.5 GBps PHY).

    Moving to DDR4 is also the next logical step (BCM4908 is still DDR3).
     
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  5. sfx2000

    sfx2000 Part of the Furniture

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    I'll go on record as being a strong proponent of eMMC for devices in this community, have been for a couple of years now...

    eMMC prices are coming down fast, and being honest here, one can do a single eMMC vs. 1 or 2 NAND devices, and get close to breaking even... I would posit that eMMC is a very small BOM hit when we see sub-$40USD single board computers include an 8GB eMMC in late 2018...

    The real benefit of eMMC vs. NAND is simpler traces to the board, less lines to worry about, and eMMC is more robust than NAND, and easier to implement... it basically offloads the flash management from the CPU/SoC to the eMMC device... and that also offers flexibility across different vendors of the eMMC...

    emmc_vs.nandMTD.png

    Then we don't need JFFS and CPU managed flash - which is important over the long term usage, and for dev and prod we don't need to do geometry adjustments in the bootloader, whether CFE or uBoot... and the MMCBlock driver is mature and clean these days...

    QCA based solutions have been using eMMC for a while now - look at Netgear with Orbi, Google WiFi, and others...

    N-Base-T might be more widespread - I'd suggest that the SoC's and Wireless NIC's are already there for Wave 2 11ac and first gen 11ax oriented devices, at least with regards to the MAC's if not the PHY's...

    N-Base-T, esp. the 2.5GHz variant, has been around for a while now - even Intel's Rangley chipset has supported that, and it's getting along on years - look at Marvell, and even their lowend SoC, 3720, supports 2.5Gbit

    I think that DDR3/DDR3L is probably where many of the vendors will land for late 2018 and 2019 - DDR4 is still really spendy, and between smartphones and servers sucking up much of the market commitments*, DDR3 is still enough for most BHR's and meshy things... bump up the memclock speeds maybe...

    *Same with eMMC, but certain sizes are still very much available... 8GB is a nice place, and works well with BHR applications since we only run a limited set of apps...
     
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  6. ulaganath

    ulaganath Senior Member

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    I saw the review by someone on his regualar test bed. Seem netgear still not upto mark. But i wonder why ax being far bandwidth capable and with HT160 and LAG possible. Cant the test still be limited to 1gbs. When lag can give full 2gig and even next model have multigig upto 5gig can yeild a greater wifi speed beyond wired limitation.

    I recently did some file transfer in same room on A7000 coupled with R7800 using voxel firmware which by far most stable firmware one can eyes closed use.

    I get 108MB/s peak and average arround 95MB/s which is between 800-974Mbps . So the test was conducted in close environment so it should sustain.
     
  7. greggy101

    greggy101 Regular Contributor

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    The RAX120 is available only through an invitation-only "Premiere Membership Beta" program, with announced pricing below. AX12.JPG
     
  8. thiggins

    thiggins Mr. Easy Staff Member

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    Where did that pricing information come from? It’s not posted on NETGEAR’s website.
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2019
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  9. greggy101

    greggy101 Regular Contributor

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    It came from their website via invitation email for a Beta Premier Membership and AX12. I signed up for it yesterday and the router should come in a few days.
    screencapture.png
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2019
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  10. thiggins

    thiggins Mr. Easy Staff Member

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    I just verified with NETGEAR that while they have not announced program pricing, program participants are not under NDA. So I restored the posts.
     
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  11. avtella

    avtella Very Senior Member

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    I called NG after getting an invite, they clarified all products are leased and must be returned. There is no option to purchase. Just a reminder in case anyone was wondering.

    As expected AX120 according to the rep will eventually be available for purchase via third party vendors (ie Best Buy etc) post test as usual so the unit is not tied to the Premier Beta permanently unlike what another user posted a while back.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2019
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  12. thiggins

    thiggins Mr. Easy Staff Member

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    Leasing/renting is actually a good way to try out new technology without having to eat the whole purchase cost of untested technology. If the “$700 value” is an indication of what NETGEAR intends to charge for the AX120 when they eventually sell it, a 2 year lease for $480 is a much better deal.

    Early adopters would probably only lease for a year or less, since mesh AX will be out end of Q1 or Q2 this year.
     
  13. greggy101

    greggy101 Regular Contributor

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    1 year agreement was the perfect scenario for me using the same common sense approach - try it out for peanuts basically, wait for AX mesh to arrive and hope that it will work. I've got very disappointing results with
    Asus RT-AX88U, hoping that Netgear will do it better. That $700 value includes a deal from Geek Squad and their setup, I am guessing that this router will be around $550 once it goes to the retailers. The question is what if Netgear will offer it only on the lease options or lease to buy - let's say after the end of 1 or 2 yr agreement...?
     
  14. thiggins

    thiggins Mr. Easy Staff Member

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    I think they would. But I think they're trying to gauge the market for a >$500 router.
     
  15. avtella

    avtella Very Senior Member

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    No you can’t buy the router you leased you have to return it after your term ends. There is no lease to buy option.


    If you want to own one, you have to go and buy it at a vendor like Best Buy once it’s gone retail according to the rep as I mentioned above.
     
  16. greggy101

    greggy101 Regular Contributor

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    This is what they say now - if they see that the sales of $550+ router are not going so well and a competition form Asus, D-Link are pushing strong - their approach to "lease only" and "premier membership" could change quickly. Just my 2 guessing cents :)
     
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  17. psychopomp1

    psychopomp1 Senior Member

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    The Netgear AX12/RAX120 is now available for pre-order on Amazon US and Amazon UK for a cool $499.99 & £431.94 respectively.

    Due to be released on 9th April 2019.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 10, 2019
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  18. thiggins

    thiggins Mr. Easy Staff Member

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