New AP: Another ASUS Router or Ubiquiti AP?

[darkarn]

Hi, seeing that I have a pfSense machine now and I want just a bit more wireless range in my house, I am thinking of changing my current AP, which is my AC-66U (Merlin FW) in AP mode.

Do you think I should change to those ASUS routers that have more and bigger antennas (and thus may have better wifi range) or make the jump to Ubiquiti APs (which I heard is much better than ASUS routers in AP mode)?

In terms of price, those routers in 2nd hand market cost as much as those Ubiquiti APs in brand-new condition.

Thanks!

 

[thiggins]

APs in general are not designed for higher range. They are designed to have features that make them work better as part of a system of multiple APs.

"More and bigger" antennas also don't necessarily increase range in routers. Use the charts to explore this.

Choose the 2.4 GHz downlink/uplink profile and set the selector to Atten 45 dB. This is the point we use for 2.4 GHz range ranking.
http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/tools/charts/router/bar/117-2_4-ghz-profile-dn/31?see=P_45

For 5 GHz profiles, set the selector to 30dB.
http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/tools/charts/router/bar/119-5-ghz-profile-dn/31?see=P_30

Increase the dB value to see which routers stay connected at the lowest signal levels.

 

[darkarn]

APs in general are not designed for higher range. They are designed to have features that make them work better as part of a system of multiple APs.

"More and bigger" antennas also don't necessarily increase range in routers. Use the charts to explore this.

Choose the 2.4 GHz downlink/uplink profile and set the selector to Atten 45 dB. This is the point we use for 2.4 GHz range ranking.
http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/tools/charts/router/bar/117-2_4-ghz-profile-dn/31?see=P_45

For 5 GHz profiles, set the selector to 30dB.
http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/tools/charts/router/bar/119-5-ghz-profile-dn/31?see=P_30

Increase the dB value to see which routers stay connected at the lowest signal levels.

Thanks for the link, this puts things into perspective well. Am I right to say that higher numbers usually indicate better range?

Just that I cannot compare the values between the APs against the routers as it appears that there is not many reviews of the APs

Also, something tells me that I should go for a mesh Wifi system (e.g. Netgear Orbi) instead of just a router, but the costs are quite high

 

[thiggins]

Thanks for the link, this puts things into perspective well. Am I right to say that higher numbers usually indicate better range?

Yes. At least that's how we rank them for range.

 

[darkarn]

Yes. At least that's how we rank them for range.

Ah I see, thanks for the confirmation!

Now here's a random idea I got after some reading: If I were to somehow get two cheaper routers/APs (of same brand and even same model) and get them to become wireless bridges a la a mesh Wifi system, will this provide better coverage vs an expensive router?

I am asking as to put it simply, as long there is a wireless AP in the middle of my house, there will be enough Wifi coverage. However, the modem and pfSense router are in my room, which is in the front of my house, meaning that the router/AP will need to be put there. I have tried Homeplugs but decided not to use them further as they are causing interference to my audio equipment.

Also, why I was looking into Ubiquiti APs is that I needed VLAN functions on the AP too for my guest network. Currently I am using a script found here for the ASUS router, but it is not guaranteed if this can continue to work

 

[pete y testing]

and get them to become wireless bridges a la a mesh Wifi system, will this provide better coverage vs an expensive router?

if you put them in different parts of the house then yes you would have more wifi coverage overall as thats what wireless access points are for

I am asking as to put it simply, as long there is a wireless AP in the middle of my house, there will be enough Wifi coverage.

that depends on how big your house is , in my testing with my 3500sft house i used 3 wireless access points to give total coverage throughout the house ( my house is long but not so wide , the number and placement of the ap's will depend on the construction materials used in the house and the design and other environmental condition as no 1 size fits all

these ap's would also need ethernet run to the required locations

if you dont want to use access points with wired ethernet you may have to look at some the mesh type applications , ubiquiti have a new range of msh ap's but have little understanding of rtheir capability atm and if the vlan requirement can be done

 

[darkarn]

if you put them in different parts of the house then yes you would have more wifi coverage overall as thats what wireless access points are for



that depends on how big your house is , in my testing with my 3500sft house i used 3 wireless access points to give total coverage throughout the house ( my house is long but not so wide , the number and placement of the ap's will depend on the construction materials used in the house and the design and other environmental condition as no 1 size fits all

these ap's would also need ethernet run to the required locations

if you dont want to use access points with wired ethernet you may have to look at some the mesh type applications , ubiquiti have a new range of msh ap's but have little understanding of rtheir capability atm and if the vlan requirement can be done

Thanks, looks like I can go with either mesh or at least two routers connected wirelessly as I don't think I can use Ethernet for most of the APs.

My only concern is the bandwidth being halved if I connect the routers wirelessly though since this is as good as using wireless repeaters

 

[pete y testing]

sounds like orbi might be the best bet as it has no loss and great wifi

 

[darkarn]

sounds like orbi might be the best bet as it has no loss and great wifi

I have seen many good reviews of the Orbi too. Just that the prices I see online is very high compared to some routers (e.g. Netgear Nighthawks, TP-Link Archers) for similar performance though based on the picker. I will be walking around and surveying router prices later though, which should give me the perspective I need. I prefer just a single strong router though if possible, gotta keep things as simple as possible

 

[darkarn]

I finished surveying for prices and models. Generally, the 1st hand/brand new prices for a good AP (e.g. Ubiquiti UAP AC Pro) is on par with some routers (e.g. Nighthawk X6, Nighthawk R7000, Asus AC68U, TP-Link C3150). There are some routers that are more expensive (e.g. Asus AC87U, AC88U, Nighthawk X10) Unsurprisingly the Orbi kit is the most expensive; it is twice or even thrice of most of the routers/APs mentioned here.

In short, in terms of price this means I can go for either a "proper" AP or a router.

Also, I am introduced to the Engenius EAP-1750H, which appears to have the highest transmit power I have seen and at a reasonable price. Anyone here have used it before?

 

[pege63]

Ubiquiti EdgeRouterX SPF+Ubiquiti Unifi AP AC PRO its a good start

 

[darkarn]

Ubiquiti EdgeRouterX SPF+Ubiquiti Unifi AP AC PRO its a good start

I was thinking of doing this initially (except using pfSense rig which I already built), but I thought I should ask around to see if there's any problems

 

[darkarn]

Not sure how much does this matter, I did a quick comparison of transmit power:

AC-66U: 18dBm (https://www.asus.com/support/faq/1000972/)
AC-87U: 23dBa (http://www.kitguru.net/peripherals/routers/zardon/asus-rt-ac87u-4x4-bridge-mode-review/)

EnGenius ECB1750: 15 dBm
EnGenius EAP1750H: 15 dBm

Ubiquiti UAP-AC-PRO: 22 dBm (https://dl.ubnt.com/datasheets/unifi/UniFi_AC_APs_DS.pdf)

 

[sfx2000]

Not sure how much does this matter, I did a quick comparison of transmit power:

AC-66U: 18dBm (https://www.asus.com/support/faq/1000972/)
AC-87U: 23dBa (http://www.kitguru.net/peripherals/routers/zardon/asus-rt-ac87u-4x4-bridge-mode-review/)

EnGenius ECB1750: 15 dBm
EnGenius EAP1750H: 15 dBm

Ubiquiti UAP-AC-PRO: 22 dBm (https://dl.ubnt.com/datasheets/unifi/UniFi_AC_APs_DS.pdf)

Depends on the device in use - just grabbed this one...

Airport Extreme AC - this one is running in CH149... and is running at 25 dBm

(Airport's still make for really good AP's if not routers)

    TSF: 174832469777 usec (2d, 00:33:52)
    freq: 5745
    beacon interval: 100 TUs
    capability: ESS Privacy SpectrumMgmt RadioMeasure (0x1111)
    signal: -65.00 dBm
    last seen: 372 ms ago
    Information elements from Probe Response frame:
    SSID: <snip>
    Supported rates: 6.0* 9.0 12.0* 18.0 24.0* 36.0 48.0 54.0 
    Country: US    Environment: Indoor/Outdoor
        Channels [36 - 36] @ 17 dBm
        Channels [40 - 40] @ 17 dBm
        Channels [44 - 44] @ 17 dBm
        Channels [48 - 48] @ 17 dBm
        Channels [52 - 52] @ 24 dBm
        Channels [56 - 56] @ 24 dBm
        Channels [60 - 60] @ 24 dBm
        Channels [64 - 64] @ 24 dBm
        Channels [100 - 100] @ 24 dBm
        Channels [104 - 104] @ 24 dBm
        Channels [108 - 108] @ 24 dBm
        Channels [112 - 112] @ 24 dBm
        Channels [116 - 116] @ 24 dBm
        Channels [132 - 132] @ 24 dBm
        Channels [136 - 136] @ 24 dBm
        Channels [140 - 140] @ 24 dBm
        Channels [144 - 144] @ 24 dBm
        Channels [149 - 149] @ 30 dBm
        Channels [153 - 153] @ 30 dBm
        Channels [157 - 157] @ 30 dBm
        Channels [161 - 161] @ 30 dBm
        Channels [165 - 165] @ 30 dBm
    Power constraint: 0 dB
    TPC report: TX power: 25 dBm

 

[darkarn]

Depends on the device in use - just grabbed this one...

Airport Extreme AC - this one is running in CH149... and is running at 25 dBm

(Airport's still make for really good AP's if not routers)

    TSF: 174832469777 usec (2d, 00:33:52)
    freq: 5745
    beacon interval: 100 TUs
    capability: ESS Privacy SpectrumMgmt RadioMeasure (0x1111)
    signal: -65.00 dBm
    last seen: 372 ms ago
    Information elements from Probe Response frame:
    SSID: <snip>
    Supported rates: 6.0* 9.0 12.0* 18.0 24.0* 36.0 48.0 54.0
    Country: US    Environment: Indoor/Outdoor
        Channels [36 - 36] @ 17 dBm
        Channels [40 - 40] @ 17 dBm
        Channels [44 - 44] @ 17 dBm
        Channels [48 - 48] @ 17 dBm
        Channels [52 - 52] @ 24 dBm
        Channels [56 - 56] @ 24 dBm
        Channels [60 - 60] @ 24 dBm
        Channels [64 - 64] @ 24 dBm
        Channels [100 - 100] @ 24 dBm
        Channels [104 - 104] @ 24 dBm
        Channels [108 - 108] @ 24 dBm
        Channels [112 - 112] @ 24 dBm
        Channels [116 - 116] @ 24 dBm
        Channels [132 - 132] @ 24 dBm
        Channels [136 - 136] @ 24 dBm
        Channels [140 - 140] @ 24 dBm
        Channels [144 - 144] @ 24 dBm
        Channels [149 - 149] @ 30 dBm
        Channels [153 - 153] @ 30 dBm
        Channels [157 - 157] @ 30 dBm
        Channels [161 - 161] @ 30 dBm
        Channels [165 - 165] @ 30 dBm
    Power constraint: 0 dB
    TPC report: TX power: 25 dBm

Thanks, looks like I also need to see how the transmit power will be like in my environment instead of just on paper...

What commands are you using by the way? Can I run that on my AC66U first?

 

[sfx2000]

Thanks, looks like I also need to see how the transmit power will be like in my environment instead of just on paper...

What commands are you using by the way? Can I run that on my AC66U first?

It's part of the updated linux wireless stack - and this is both client side and AP side - Debian Jessie has it, as does Ubuntu 16.04 (and later)... Fedora if one is bent on the RedHat way should also have it.

it supplements/replaces the old iwconfig commands... it's not likely that it would be on your AC66U, but there are other commands that might do similar - check the man page for iwconfig and see what options there are present with that one.

The actual command that output above - sudo iw <wireless interface> scan

 

[darkarn]

It's part of the updated linux wireless stack - and this is both client side and AP side - Debian Jessie has it, as does Ubuntu 16.04 (and later)... Fedora if one is bent on the RedHat way should also have it.

it supplements/replaces the old iwconfig commands... it's not likely that it would be on your AC66U, but there are other commands that might do similar - check the man page for iwconfig and see what options there are present with that one.

The actual command that output above - sudo iw <wireless interface> scan

My AC66U does not have iw or iwconfig. I don't have any client that can do these commands too (unless getting my laptop to boot from Parted Magic USB may work?)

 

[darkarn]

After some more reading, I think going ahead with a mesh Wifi solution makes more sense

In particular I am going for the Netgear Orbi. But just a few questions:

1. By doing this I will be downgrading my 5Ghz from 1300Mbps to 833Mbps. Is this of any concern?

2. Will it be ok with a pfSense machine? I am worried about guest networks and VLAN tagging, which the AC66U cannot do well once it is an AP.

3. How's Netgear's aftersales support especially firmware? For Asus I can count on it and also on many custom firmware authors like Merlin (thanks Merlin!) but I am unsure about Netgear

Thanks!

 

[thiggins]

The link rate downgrade matters only if you have 3x3 devices. But the improved coverage could even offset that. A higher link rate is only achieved with very strong signals.

Guest networks are available in AP mode. Orbi has no support for VLANs.

There is no custom firmware for Orbi.

 

[darkarn]

The link rate downgrade matters only if you have 3x3 devices. But the improved coverage could even offset that. A higher link rate is only achieved with very strong signals.

Guest networks are available in AP mode. Orbi has no support for VLANs.

There is no custom firmware for Orbi.

Thanks!

1. I don't think I have 3x3 devices now but am hoping to be able to support them properly. Before that, what examples of such devices do you know of?

2. I heard about this too, but am concerned about this issue: https://community.netgear.com/t5/Orbi/Orbi-Guest-Wifi-Settings/m-p/1181066#M1501

Is it resolved already?

Also, a pity about the lack of VLAN support for the Orbi (this may make or break my decision)

3. I am not just referring to custom firmware though. What I am concerned about here is whether Netgear do update their products regularly for years (or at least, security patches) and how is the quality of their firmware like. I am ok without using custom firmware this time round.