Problem with a QNap TS-212P :(

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LeKeiser

Regular Contributor
To reiterate, this is normal recovery for a failure in raid mirroring. This is a raid function, you can "blame" QNAP if you wish, but it is basic Linux code, nothing to do with them really.
Hello and thanx for your reply :)

I agree, it has something to do with the Raid application and/or the ext4 partition. But if it's the Raid application, it's something QNAP chose and configured.
As I said, I have a DLink and a WD running Raid1 partitions, and a Sheevaplug/Debian with a single disk ext4 partition. They went down the same way the QNAP did, and I never had those problems with them. And never had those problems with the servers I monitor at work but those are of course using Raid hardware :D

I'll also ask again what HDD Manufacturer and model you are running along with the approximate age of the drives.
sorry, missed the post where you asked for those infos.
I'm at work right now, so I'll give you more infos when I get home. But the disks are Seagates. And they are not that old, and haven't been on that long. I have older disks of course with no pb whatsoever.

The S.M.A.R.T. values of 100 that you quoted are not the actual values, you need to look at the "raw value" column :)
https://www.z-a-recovery.com/manual/smart.aspx
The SMART values are the ones that QNAP gave me using the GUI. I'll have to ssh the NAS to see if I can get more information. Dunno what smart application is being used. If it's smartmontool then I'll check the logs. Otherwise, gonna have to look deeper.

It isn't the QNAP uptime I was asking about, it is the runtime of the HDDs.
SMART 9 power-on_hours.

How about 1 raw_read_error_rate and 7 seek_error_rate?
Will tell you when I get home :)


No, not necessarily. If the HDD self-corrected, then your tests would NOT show this. It would be buried in the SMART data.
The tests I ran are from the QNAP GUI , they don't report detailed stuff. But I would assume that if there were bad sectors, it would report them... Otherwise, what's the point?

I have both a TS-563 and a TS-231P (the later is pretty similar to yours). In all fairness, this is primarily a router forum. Have you tried posting on the QNAP community forum https://forum.qnap.com/ or entering a help ticket with QNAP directly? (I strongly suspect that they will tell you the same things we are though).

It's an old NAS, out of warranty. I don't think QNAP would help me there.
Maybe the QNAP community indeed. I'll try that too, thanx for the tip :)
 

dosborne

Very Senior Member
But I would assume that if there were bad sectors, it would report them... Otherwise, what's the point?
No :)
Correction at the HARDWARE level (i.e. SMART) is self contained and would not be reported by a (software) surface scan. This seems to be one of the issues that you are struggling at understanding. Give the link posted above (https://www.z-a-recovery.com/manual/smart.aspx) a read :)

I had to return a WD Red drive for this very reason. The NAS showed no errors, when tested in a PC, software diagnostics showed no errors, but SMART stats (which ONLY come from the drive itself) showed thousands of sectors that it had locked out as bad. The real issue in this case was that those sectors contained the key directory structure.

But if it's the Raid application, it's something QNAP chose and configured.
Again, no, not really. This is standard Linux code used by all major NAS vendors, including QNAP.

I think we will just have to disagree. :)
 
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LeKeiser

Regular Contributor
No :)
Correction at the HARDWARE level (i.e. SMART) is self contained and would not be reported by a (software) surface scan. This seems to be one of the issues that you are struggling at understanding. Give the link posted above (https://www.z-a-recovery.com/manual/smart.aspx) a read :)

You know, I think I understand how SMART works way more than you think...
You asked me to give you the SMART value the QNAP app reported. So I did. They are what the QNAP application is reporting. I don't know what kind of information your QNAP app might give you, but those are the ones mine is giving me.
I have also launched a thourough scan of the disk using again the QNAP application. This is totally different than the SMART report. It reports either that there is no problem with the disk, or that there is some problems, I would think a detailed report of bad sectors or something alike. But since my disks are fine, I got, from the QNAP application on the GUI, a Good State and a Good SMART.

Now, you seem to have another way to get more hardware information from your disks and your NAS than me. So I assume you've got them through a SSH connection. I would really love to know which application you are launching, cuz I didn't see it. As I said before, I use smartmontools on my servers. Can't find it on this NAS. But there has to be somethig similar.

So you keep saying stuff, you give me websites about how SMART works, as if I didn't know that already. But I'm wondering : what's your experience with NAS, with Raid partitions, with Linux?
Cuz so far, you're asking me to post the SMART information the QNAP has given me...
Reallocated Sectors Count : 0
Reallocation Event Count : missing...
Current Pending Sector Count : 0
Uncorrectable Sector Count : 0

So you see, even SMART is saying that there is nothing wrong with the disks...

The one thing that's weird is that one disk is completly messing with the Power_On_Hours while the other one is giving me I think the correct information, 3.5 yrs. Mind you, I have tried to convert the data but it's not minutes nor seconds...
The Start/Stop Count is also wrong. Says +15K and you will agree that it's just not possible.
But this happens with some disks. Doen't mean they are faulty. Just means that the data cannot be retrieved. At least, not with the configuration of the smart application.

I had to return a WD Red drive for this very reason. The NAS showed no errors, when tested in a PC, software diagnostics showed no errors, but SMART stats (which ONLY come from the drive itself) showed thousands of sectors that it had locked out as bad. The real issue in this case was that those sectors contained the key directory structure.
Well, as you did read now, the SMART results I got from the QNAP GUI applications shows that there is nothing wrong with the disks.
Again, I would prefer to run the application from the SSH connection and change the configuration so I would get all the data I want, but I can't find it. Yet.


Again, no, not really. This is standard Linux code used by all major NAS vendors, including QNAP.
Show me your source please. You seem to be so sure that you have to have some good sources. Please, tell me :
_ which application QNAP is using when I choose the SMART test.
_ which application DLink is using when I choose the SMART test.
_ which application Synology is using if I choose the SMART test on any NAS.
_ ...

You say it's a standard Linux code. Please, tell me what is your knowledge of Linux. As I told you, I know a little about Linux, been using it as a geek since 1994. Not an expert, far from it. But I do have some knowledge. And so far, I always managed to do what I wanted with my Linux servers, at home and at work. That's why I would like to know what is your experience. You must have some, since you are so affirmative in your posts.
Oh, I also happen to have been in the Raid business a while ago. Worked for a company called LaCie. I'm sure you've heard of this company :) I have sold many Raid solutions back in the days. Nice network towers, full of SCSI drives.
Just sayin'...

I think we will just have to disagree. :)

On a few (many?) thing I guess... But that's part of a discussion on a forum, right?
 

dosborne

Very Senior Member
I would really love to know which application you are launching, cuz I didn't see it.
Just using the GUI in my QNAP ts-563 as my other one is back in its box as a spare at the moment.

But I'm wondering : what's your experience with NAS, with Raid partitions, with Linux?
Didn't know I was applying for a job, but I'm a hardware (chip design) and software (too many languages to list) engineer for 40 years, plus qnx, Unix, Linux, NetWare admin for about 20 years in there too. Designed and built servers (mainframes) and disk farms for a living then the last 10 or so years as a product manager. As I'm not interested in the job I won't list my degrees, certifications or courses I've taught on related subjects :)

The reason I was asking about the smart values is that "100" is a threshold in most cases, not a data value and I was just trying to help rule out a disk issue based on somewhat spotty and misleading information. As I don't"know" you, I had (and still have) little idea as to your true knowledge level, so I always try to start with some basic fact checking and try to provide education rather just yes or no answers.
 
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dosborne

Very Senior Member
Show me your source please. You seem to be so sure that you have to have some good sources. Please, tell me :
_ which application QNAP is using when I choose the SMART test.
_ which application DLink is using when I choose the SMART test.
_ which application Synology is using if I choose the SMART test on any NAS.
SMART testing is implemented in the HDD firmware and the NAS manufacturers access it through a standard API.

Not interested in providing sources (try google) - but I'm going with what I know). You are free to ignore my attempts to help you as you see fit. :)
 

coxhaus

Part of the Furniture
You are just asking for trouble if you run a RAID without a battery backup. You need to break the RAID and start over. Once data corruption happens you will not recover even if the hard drives are good. The corruption will slowly grow bigger. You are destined for failure. This is not a QNAP problem but a RAID feature. The same thing can happen on any NAS as well as any server.
 

LeKeiser

Regular Contributor
Just using the GUI in my QNAP ts-563 as my other one is back in its box as a spare at the moment.
well then it seems your NAS gives you more information than mine.
I have searched everywhere in all the directories but couldn't find more than what the GUI showed me. And I couldn't find the program that is used. It seems it's smartmontools, found what I think is a Java smartd app, but where does it save the results... Dunno?

Didn't know I was applying for a job, but I'm a hardware (chip design) and software (too many languages to list) engineer for 40 years, plus qnx, Unix, Linux, NetWare admin for about 20 years in there too. Designed and built servers (mainframes) and disk farms for a living then the last 10 or so years as a product manager. As I'm not interested in the job I won't list my degrees, certifications or courses I've taught on related subjects :)
You're not applying but there are so many people just say technical stuff so they can shine on forums and they just point you to website, and close the discussion when they have nothing more to say cuz they don't know jack.
Since you work also on Linux, why don't you go check your own NAS and see what program is being used, where the data is stored, and more? That's the thing to do if you really say you know about how NAS work. You say "All the NAS use the same program to create Raid partition" but you don't say more, you just say it...
You've been an engineer for 40 years? So that meants you're 60+, right? Sorry if I'm being too curious...

The reason I was asking about the smart values is that "100" is a threshold in most cases, not a data value and I was just trying to help rule out a disk issue based on somewhat spotty and misleading information. As I don't"know" you, I had (and still have) little idea as to your true knowledge level, so I always try to start with some basic fact checking and try to provide education rather just yes or no answers.

And you are right to ask first basic questions, I wasn't offended at all :)
But then we discussed a bit more about SMART so I was surprised you kept on asking basic questions still, is all :)
So it seems the version of my QNAP is not as good as yours (obviously, mine is the cheaper one I think) and well, all the SMART data I can give you I have posted here.
I have launched last night a thorough scan of the RAID partition, and of course, the only result I got was... good state. Nothing more :(
I'm going to see if I can install smartmontools directly on the NAS, and if that's possible, then I will be able to get way more information after a scan.
 

LeKeiser

Regular Contributor
SMART testing is implemented in the HDD firmware and the NAS manufacturers access it through a standard API.

Not interested in providing sources (try google) - but I'm going with what I know). You are free to ignore my attempts to help you as you see fit. :)

See... That's the easy way like saying "This is how it is because I say that's how it is. And I don't have to prove anything cuz that's how it is"
Either you have proof of what you say or you don't. And when you don't, then I have no reason to blindly trust you. Right?
And see... Again, what you are saying is again basic stuff. Don't you think I know (and others too) that SMART is implemented in all the HDD firmware (started in the mid 90s for all the disks, thanx Wiki) and that you can check it using apps on Windows or Linux or...
Really, I don't see the purpose of this post. Sorry but it doesn't help at all. Nothing to move forward on the problem...
 

LeKeiser

Regular Contributor
You are just asking for trouble if you run a RAID without a battery backup. You need to break the RAID and start over. Once data corruption happens you will not recover even if the hard drives are good. The corruption will slowly grow bigger. You are destined for failure. This is not a QNAP problem but a RAID feature. The same thing can happen on any NAS as well as any server.
Well my electricity line is normally very stable, but of course, you can never be sure and safe :(
I've bought an EATON USP, it gives me something like 25 mins of power before it shuts down. I've configured the NAS to properly shutdown before that of course.
Again, what I don't understand is why the names of the directories/files have changed just because I lost the WiFi connection when I was surfing on the NAS, why only 3 directories were changed, and not the others with accents in their name, and... Really weird, not logical at all.
 

dosborne

Very Senior Member
So that meants you're 60+
58 actually
Don't you think I know (and others too) that SMART is implemented in all the HDD firmware
I really don't know what you do or do not know. I'm also trying to help ANYONE who may read this in the future, who may have a different knowledge level.
where the data is stored,
The SMART data is stored on the HDD itself, but you should know that already :)
Either you have proof of what you say or you don't
Pretty hard to condense 40 years of experience into a post. Was just trying to offer free help, not write a thousand page manual.
Really, I don't see the purpose of this post. Sorry but it doesn't help at all. Nothing to move forward on the problem...
And with that, I'm done. Good luck.
 

LeKeiser

Regular Contributor
58 actuallyI really don't know what you do or do not know. I'm also trying to help ANYONE who may read this in the future, who may have a different knowledge level.
Well posting website with just basic information doesn't help... Website with what to when you have this or that problem does.
Everybody can search wikipedia and other sites to know more about SMART. How to retrieve the information FROM SMART is what people need...
As to what I know or not, I figured it was obvious after all I have wrote that I know a little bit about SMART & hard disks &...

The SMART data is stored on the HDD itself, but you should know that already :)
I see you didn't understand me...
When you run smartmontools & Cie on a Linux distro, you can retrieve the results of the application from a file, the result file. This is the one I'm trying to find on the NAS, but so far, no luck. Yet, it must be somewhere.
And since you seem to know so much about Raid and NAS and... I thought you would know and point me to the right direction.

Pretty hard to condense 40 years of experience into a post. Was just trying to offer free help, not write a thousand page manual.
Not asking you to condense your 40 years of knowledge...
As a matter of fact, you haven't shown me your knowledge at all. Anyone is capable of posting website with just the real basic information, like you did... Anyone can post "hey, what's the result of this SMART ID?" But if you don't back it off with solutions, then what gives? This is when someone with some kind of knowledge about the subject is needed.
You never once went deeper into the system of the NAS. Never once said something like "Hey, which directory did you search the smart app? Cuz I'm not sure it's in the /opt, I think it's in the /local directory, don't ask me why..."
So yes, I'm not sure you know what you are talking about... Eventhough you claim you have 40 yrs of engineering behind you.
You remind me of that Linux admin team they decided to create where I work. They all think they know everything better than anyone, they won't try to explain anything cuz it's like it's above them. But scratch the surface just a little, and you see it's just powder for your eyes...

And with that, I'm done. Good luck.

Thanx.
 

PeterT

Occasional Visitor
Something I'm unclear about us how are the files being copied to the NAS? What protocol is being used? The duplicate directory names sound more like they are being created by the client and not the server.
 

LeKeiser

Regular Contributor
Something I'm unclear about us how are the files being copied to the NAS? What protocol is being used? The duplicate directory names sound more like they are being created by the client and not the server.
hello :)

The files were copied a long time ago, when I rip my CDs. I copy them from my Win10 laptop, using the SMB protocol.
The duplicate names are only files duplicates. Directories aren't duplicated.
And it's not all the files. Only some, in some directories.
And it didn't happen when I was connected to the NAS. It happened many times when the NAS got cold shutdown. I got duplicates/triplicates/quaplicates... in some folders, while the others weren't impacted.
Really weird.
I would have understood if all my data was impacted. I don't understand why only some files were.

Oh, one thing that I don't get as well. The NAS wakes up the disks sometimes, even when none of my computers are on. I mean, I would understand if I was using one of my laptop, it would connect to the NAS through a shared directory (Music for example) but when I'm not online, when I'm not using any of my computers,...
I have checked the configuration and I don't see any option that would wake the NAS up. I'm sure I have disabled all the wake-up options, from the network part.
Only this NAS does that... My WD and my DLink, when sleeping, stay sleeping.
Weird...
 

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