Range: G vs N vs AC?

[newjockey]

I just read the new article showing the increased throughput of AC over N. Very interesting...

In my situation, I'm still using a WRT54GL with Tomato FW (and honestly, it works GREAT for me, so I've not felt it imperative to upgrade). I have a nearly dead zone (master bedroom upstairs opposite corner of house), which the router will reach weakly, but reliably (-66 dbm) with the (heavy wood) door open. Things get slow and sporadic with the door shut (-70 dbm). It's the only room in the house with sporadic connections. I believe it is because there is a radiator AND chimney in the line of sight.

Money is tight, so I'm reluctant to spend money on what I *really* want (an Asus RT-AC68U) without knowing if it will out-range the WRT54GL. That would suck to spend $200 and STILL have unreliable signal strength in the master bedroom.

I was able to get my hands on a free Linksys WRT110 (older, draft N), which I tested and it actually had worse range than the WRT54GL.

Without actually being able to test an RT-AC68U in my environment, can someone share any similar experiences they've had to help me have a more educated view on my situation? I actually don't care too much about throughput (anything over a consistent 5Mbps would be fine), I'm more interested in reliable signal strength with the door closed.

Thanks,
Tim

 

[theveterans]

Here's a simple comparison:

Assumptions:

Same TX power, Antenna gain and spatial streams.

With that the range is as follows:

2.4 GHz N > 2.4 GHz G > 5 GHz AC > 5 GHz N

ASUS RT-AC68U has high TX power and which yields the longest range.

One caveat: the client must also have high TX power in order to communicate reliably with the AP at long range.

Best solution: setup multiple APs or have another high power router setup as a client bridge in the dead zone.

 

[bobsilver]

Getting an AC router isn't going to do you any good for what you want. Best range is in the 2.4ghz band. All the action in AC is in the 5ghz band which has less range then the 2.4ghz band. Top line routers like the Netgear Nighthawk have better range due to improved RF amps and antennas. But that said it is probably in the area of 20+% better. Not 2x or something.

If all you want is range extension why not just by a repeater? Your issue though is there are no G products available today. N repeaters should work but not sure how well. Never tried it myself.

That said if I were you Id look at updating to at least a good dual band N router. Maybe something used to save money as there are plenty on ebay. N is significantly better then G (yes in throughput) and there are some great old routers like the Netgear WNDR3700 V1 to be had for low $. The 3700 is a great router with excellent 2.4ghz range.

Bob Silver
NETGEAR Networking Assistant

 

[newjockey]

Thanks for the replies. A lot to consider...

Like I said, I'd *love* the RT-AC68U, but it's a want, not a need. Our family is getting by as-is, I guess I was just looking for someone to say they were in the same situation and a new RT-AC68U (or equivalent other brand) did wonders for them.

I was mildly shocked that the WRT110 (2.4Ghz N) had less range than the WRT54GL (2.4Ghz G). I currently have it set up as an AP right next to the 54GL (one on channel 1, the other on channel 11). For the downstairs wireless devices, it does improve throughput over the 54GL, but in the master bedroom the 54GL has stronger signal and throughput.

 

[fistv]

Depending on the house you could look into running a network cable to the other end of the house and putting in a cheap router configured as an AP.

 

[newjockey]

Depending on the house you could look into running a network cable to the other end of the house and putting in a cheap router configured as an AP.

Yes, I've considered that with the WRT110. I've already put it in AP-mode, but I'm not too keen on running cable upstairs. I'd do it in a heartbeat if it was necessary, but I'd like to save that as a last resort.

Can you tell I REALLY want an RT-AC68U? LOL. Perhaps there will be a nice Christmas bonus that allows it to happen.

 

[stevech]

I recommend not buying 11ac for improved range.

At the extreme, 802.11g or 802.11b has the longest range but lower (1-6Mbps) data rate. It's the great tradeoff.

 

[fistv]

Yes, I've considered that with the WRT110. I've already put it in AP-mode, but I'm not too keen on running cable upstairs. I'd do it in a heartbeat if it was necessary, but I'd like to save that as a last resort.

Can you tell I REALLY want an RT-AC68U? LOL. Perhaps there will be a nice Christmas bonus that allows it to happen.

If dollars are an issue, run the cable, that's cheap, only investment is your time, maybe some spackle and paint and remember to NOT drive the finish nails though the cable when putting the floor moulding back on, yes, cat5e will fit nicely behind moulding between the sheetrock and the floor you may not have to run it all the way to the second floor.

I'm surprised none of the router manufacturers have come out with a decorative wall mount AP, one you could put a family portrait or something in.
That gives me an idea, going to check the warehouse here for damaged humidors we've had returned by customers, one of those would house an AP or a router with room to spare and allow for mounting antennas on the back.

 

[theveterans]

Thanks for the replies. A lot to consider...

Like I said, I'd *love* the RT-AC68U, but it's a want, not a need. Our family is getting by as-is, I guess I was just looking for someone to say they were in the same situation and a new RT-AC68U (or equivalent other brand) did wonders for them.

I was mildly shocked that the WRT110 (2.4Ghz N) had less range than the WRT54GL (2.4Ghz G). I currently have it set up as an AP right next to the 54GL (one on channel 1, the other on channel 11). For the downstairs wireless devices, it does improve throughput over the 54GL, but in the master bedroom the 54GL has stronger signal and throughput.

The WRT110 probably has lower TX power than 54GL. If you buy the 68U, you'll be surprised by its range ONLY when you are only doing a scan and NOT associated yet. Once you associate your device with the 68U, all that range will be reduced to the smaller range of your client. That's why it's preferred to setup multiple APs / same router as a wireless client bridge rather than a single high powered AP.

In case you're wondering, I'm confident that a 68U will probably get 5 bars at your location on 2.4 Ghz while your current routers will only get 3 bars or lower. However, once you associate your client, it'll drop down to 4 bars or less (some clients display the router's signal rather than its own when associated i.e. Intel cards do this IMO) unless your client can match the 68U's high power output. If the client still displays the router's signal strength in bars even after associated (i.e. 5 bars still), you'll be disappointed with speed when upload transfer is being used.

 

[newjockey]

If dollars are an issue, run the cable, that's cheap, only investment is your time, maybe some spackle and paint and remember to NOT drive the finish nails though the cable when putting the floor moulding back on, yes, cat5e will fit nicely behind moulding between the sheetrock and the floor you may not have to run it all the way to the second floor.

I'm surprised none of the router manufacturers have come out with a decorative wall mount AP, one you could put a family portrait or something in.
That gives me an idea, going to check the warehouse here for damaged humidors we've had returned by customers, one of those would house an AP or a router with room to spare and allow for mounting antennas on the back.

It's a Victorian home with original wood moulding. If anything, I'd find some non-destructive means of securing the cable along the top of the mouldings so that the cable was still visible, but discretely routed. Any ideas?

 

[TonyH]

Hi,
Note, WRT110 has internal antenna. mode(-G, -N, -AC) and range is two different thing. There seems to be a confusion or misunderstanding on this.

 

[TonyH]

It's a Victorian home with original wood moulding. If anything, I'd find some non-destructive means of securing the cable along the top of the mouldings so that the cable was still visible, but discretely routed. Any ideas?

Hi,
Keep in mind you can have flat cable too in different color. Or is it possible to go up straight to attic and run the cable there and let it drop down where
you need?

 

[fistv]

It's a Victorian home with original wood moulding. If anything, I'd find some non-destructive means of securing the cable along the top of the mouldings so that the cable was still visible, but discretely routed. Any ideas?

Depending on the profile of the moulding you could a add trim piece on the bottom or top but have a wood shop route out a channel for the cat5E cable. Then you could paint it to match. just be careful how you nail it, I'd predrill the holes so there are no mistakes. I've done some historic homes in Morristown NJ and it is nerve wracking to have a curator watching over your shoulder.
I would also see if your framing is balloon framing, reaching from the basement to the second floor is a piece of cake in a balloon framed home provided it was not updated for fire prevention.

 

[stevech]

Flat cat5, Available in various lengths with RJ45 already affixed. ALso in white.
http://www.monoprice.com/Product?c_id=102&cp_id=10208&cs_id=1020812&p_id=9555&seq=1&format=2

 

[newjockey]

Depending on the profile of the moulding you could a add trim piece on the bottom or top but have a wood shop route out a channel for the cat5E cable. Then you could paint it to match. just be careful how you nail it, I'd predrill the holes so there are no mistakes. I've done some historic homes in Morristown NJ and it is nerve wracking to have a curator watching over your shoulder.
I would also see if your framing is balloon framing, reaching from the basement to the second floor is a piece of cake in a balloon framed home provided it was not updated for fire prevention.

That's a bit more involved than I want to get. I'm thinking something that will be nearly free, won't involve anyone else, and take about an hour of my time. Maybe something like this:
http://www.showmecables.com/product/cable-clip-for-single-coax-nail-in-fasteners-100-pack.aspx
with the nail going into the drywall, not the moulding.

 

[newjockey]

Hi,
Note, WRT110 has internal antenna. mode(-G, -N, -AC) and range is two different thing. There seems to be a confusion or misunderstanding on this.

No confusion. See posts #2 and #7. They knew what I was asking.

 

[fistv]

That's a bit more involved than I want to get. I'm thinking something that will be nearly free, won't involve anyone else, and take about an hour of my time. Maybe something like this:
http://www.showmecables.com/product/cable-clip-for-single-coax-nail-in-fasteners-100-pack.aspx
with the nail going into the drywall, not the moulding.

Make sure it's drywall and not plaster, plaster does not take nails very well. I've used those a lot, mainly for coax, I have a staple gun for doing network and telco cable, shoots an arrow T25 if I remember right, been a while since I've used it. I wonder if a white tape to tape the cable to the white moulding, if it is white, would work. No holes and to remove you just pull the tape and clean with some goo gone or turpentine.

 

[azazel1024]

The answer is, it depends. With identical radio power and antennas, 11n is going to have longer range to any client with 2+ streams. MIMO is the reason. There is an effective power gain from each stream, so 11n DOES potentially have more range than 11b/g, which are single stream only.

11n can and will lower the modulation rate, so 11b/g generally doesn't have any actual benefit over 11n for lower modulation rate reasons*.

Performance at the same distance is generally much better with 11n, over b/g, especially if you have a base station and client with 2+ spatial streams.

~-70dBm, at least for 11n, is not terribly low signal strength. From my access point to my laptop with a signal strength of -76dBm, I can get about 4MB/sec for 2-stream, 2.4GHz 40MHz channel widths. Granted, that isn't super fast and there is more than signal strength to consider.

11ac base stations, even with 2.4GHz, DO seem to have even better performance at range than 11n base stations do. What exactly is the reason, dunno (I suspect better components, maybe better code), but I've seen it in my testing. I see the SLIGHTEST hint of longer range on my 11ac router over my 11n router with identical antennas setups to the same client, but there could be other reasons for this.

*In testing dropping the protocol from 11n to 11g on my router, range DROPS noticably. Speed of course plumets, but range does also drop. I've also tested this with my N600 router and experience the same thing. On the 5GHz side of things, my only option is going from 11n to 11a on my N600 or 11a/n/ac to 11a on my AC1750 router. In both cases, range also drops, not just performance. It is not a HUGE drop, but it is a noticable drop in range, where at very long range, I can no longer get a stable connection and/or windows refuses to connect to the wifi network, where as with the higher protocol it would connect and have a stable and okay (if not super fast) connection.

Of course my deffinition of not super fast is 2.5-3.5MB/sec depending on if I am testing the 11n or 11ac router at very long range, which is likely faster than 11g router with a very high signal strength connection.

PS Note at the begining, I said identica power and antennas, there are plenty of 11n routers with lower power radios and crappy antennas and plenty of 11g routers with big antennas and resonably powerful radios...that can make a big difference in actual range, even in a house. A doubling in radio power and a 5dBi external antenna over the lower radio power and 2dBi internal antennas can easily mean getting a single a room further away.

 

[stevech]

At the extreme, 11b has better range because it strives for a much lower bits/Hz/Sec, i.e., a lower spectrum efficiency "yield".
Stated otherwise, the channel width for 11b and 11g/n is 20MHz (normally). Reducing the bit rate (and thus reducing the modulation order), thus reduces the required signal to noise ratio (SNR). That equates to longer range. The "Throughput" at the IP layer improves too, since there is less coding - that being forward error correction (FEC) bits. FEC costs throughput.

MIMO's multi-stream, if done two-way, can ideally improve by about 6-9dB. But I see mostly half that, or less.
Getting that same 6+ dB improvement by forcing 11n lower speeds, or using 11b at 1 or 6Mbps, will most often give better range and fade margin than MIMO, though at lower speeds.

When range and fade margin is more important that high data rates, these are the alternatives. Forcing 11n to use at most X bps modulation order is a good idea in these cases such as industrial apps, and handheld consumer devices which inherently don't need more than 1-2 Mbps to give a good user experience.

 

[bodean]

I always thought N meant 5Ghz, and B/G meant 2.4Ghz
What is 2.4Ghz N, and what are it's benefits?