Thinking about switching to MoCA 2.5

[krkaufman]

$30/each. Does that sound pretty reasonable?

It depends on what you’re getting for that $30. Can you supply a link to the product listing?

 

[krkaufman]

I'll have to move some furniture to take one of the j-boxes apart and take some measurements, but maybe with some right-angle adapters it could work.

If just for data, could the junction boxes be pulled and replaced with a simple mounting bracket, similar to the following?

Monoprice 1-Gang Low Voltage Mounting Bracket - Monoprice.com

Install wall plates without the need for a full in-wall electrical box using this 1-Gang Low Voltage Mounting Bracket from Monoprice™!This mounting bracket allows you to install a wall plate for

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[GnatGoSplat]

It depends on what you’re getting for that $30. Can you supply a link to the product listing?

Frontier WF-803FT MoCa 2.5 Ethernet Network Adapter | eBay

Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Frontier WF-803FT MoCa 2.5 Ethernet Network Adapter at the best online prices at eBay! Free shipping for many products!

www.ebay.com

Same as the GoCoax model but without pass-through, I think.

If just for data, could the junction boxes be pulled and replaced with a simple mounting bracket, similar to the following?

Monoprice 1-Gang Low Voltage Mounting Bracket - Monoprice.com

Install wall plates without the need for a full in-wall electrical box using this 1-Gang Low Voltage Mounting Bracket from Monoprice™!This mounting bracket allows you to install a wall plate for

www.monoprice.com

In theory, possibly, but they're bolted to the studs. I recently cut out a junction box double that size using a Dremel to replace a light fixture with recessed, and it was quite a bit of effort. More than MoCA may be worth.

 

[krkaufman]

Same as the GoCoax model but without pass-through, I think.

Yeah, they’re obviously goCoax adapters customized for Frontier, also referred to as Frontier FCA251 adapters, I believe. My main concern would be if any config customization or firmware update were ever needed.

Pretty great price; I’m tempted, myself.

 

[beels]

If the antenna coax will be connected to the MoCA-infused coax, a "PoE" MoCA filter (preferably w/ 70 dB attenuation) is required on the antenna line to prevent MoCA signals emanating from the premise (out the antenna).

Is it actually possible for the digital MoCa signal to emanate/broadcast from an OTA? I'm running MoCA on my OTA line and hadn't considered this was possible. Security risk?

 

[krkaufman]

Is it actually possible for the digital MoCa signal to emanate/broadcast from an OTA? I'm running MoCA on my OTA line and hadn't considered this was possible. Security risk?

I don’t know how much of a security risk it might be. I believe it relates more to the FCC frowning on signal interference.

 

[GnatGoSplat]

Yeah, they’re obviously goCoax adapters customized for Frontier, also referred to as Frontier FCA251 adapters, I believe. My main concern would be if any config customization or firmware update were ever needed.

Pretty great price; I’m tempted, myself.

Ended up buying 4. Guess I'll take a gamble on firmware updates. Took your advice and bought real MoCA splitters, 3pcs of Holland MSAT-2. Got an ANTRONIX 4-way for the main splitter. Didn't catch 70dB preferred on the filter till now, I had bought the cheapest Amazon had which is only 40dB, but hopefully it'll be good enough since I'm just using OTA.

Here's my crude MS Paint plan as of now while I wait for the stuff to arrive, changes for MoCA are in red. I'm not going to worry about balancing the antenna for now, just going to focus on MoCA. I don't even have a real antenna yet, and will need to run wiring to the attic which will probably be better as a Fall/Winter project since it's sweltering hot now.

In the "funny shaped room", the previous owner seemed to have forgotten to run the coax until after he'd put the drywall up, so the cabling in that room is exposed and clamped above the baseboard and around the door trim. I keep my equipment on the south wall and due to the door between the south and west wall, it makes more sense to splice into the exposed cable than use the west wall jack and run more wiring back.

I'm a little concerned I might not be able to get close to the gigabit speeds I hope for, because the whole house is RG59, NOT RG6. That was a bit of a disappointment.

Anything I might have missed or should be concerned about?

Also debating whether it's worth purchasing some compression fittings and tool. Whole house has twist-on fittings which I distinctly recall had a habit of coming off whenever I tried correctly rewiring the splitters in the junction boxes and had to get real aggressive on the cramming. I also don't like getting stuck by stray wire strands coming out the backs of them. Not a huge fan of those twist-on fittings.

 

[krkaufman]

Took your advice and bought real MoCA splitters, 3pcs of Holland MSAT-2

Oof. That splitter conflicts with the advice posted (included below). See the "SAT" in the model# and "DirecTV Approved" in the Amazon product listing. The MSAT-2 is Holland's splitter optimized for DirecTV's MoCA implementation, which operates within a whole separate frequency range from that used by retail MoCA adapters.

If buying Holland, you'd want splitters from the GHS-PRO-M series; and Antronix, from the MMC1000H-B line (ex: 2-way, 4-way). Or whatever that splitter was with the vertical form factor, with all its ports on the face. (ah, found it)

“Can”...maybe. “Certainly will”...no.

Aside from the top-level splitter in a MoCA setup, where the “PoE” MoCA filter’s reflectivity enables a lower-cost path for the MoCA signal (see pgs. 17-24), MoCA relies on port hopping between outputs and so benefits from lower output port isolation in the MoCA frequency range — the opposite of what is best for a satellite setup. ‘gist: A splitter cannot be optimized for both satellite and retail MoCA (Band D) operation.

(see also)

 

[krkaufman]

Ended up buying 4.

The "Make Offer" option was beneficial.

 

[krkaufman]

I'm a little concerned I might not be able to get close to the gigabit speeds I hope for, because the whole house is RG59, NOT RG6. That was a bit of a disappointment.

Hopefully the difference between the two at MoCA frequencies (see here) isn't so significant that it's a deal breaker for your setup. Regardless, keep the MoCA repeater option in mind.

edit: p.s. Hmmm... this page indicates a greater gap in attenuation b/w RG59 and RG6, though it unhelpfully stop at 1 GHz.

 

[GnatGoSplat]

Oof. That splitter conflicts with the advice posted (included below). See the "SAT" in the model# and "DirecTV Approved" in the Amazon product listing. The MSAT-2 is Holland's splitter optimized for DirecTV's MoCA implementation, which operates within a whole separate frequency range from that used by retail MoCA adapters.

If buying Holland, you'd want splitters from the GHS-PRO-M series; and Antronix, from the MMC1000H-B line (ex: 2-way, 4-way). Or whatever that splitter was with the vertical form factor, with all its ports on the face. (ah, found it)

D'oh! I didn't really think about the model #. Just saw MoCA on it in big print, thought it was good, lol. Didn't buy from Amazon so can't return them. Guess I will try them and resell if I don't get good bandwidth.

The "Make Offer" option was beneficial.

Yeah, that's what I did.

 

[krkaufman]

Anything I might have missed or should be concerned about?

It would be interesting to see if your MoCA nodes report any performance/efficiency difference between the diagrammed plan and the same but with a MoCA filter on the non-MoCA output of the "South Wall/Funny Shaped Room" splitter. (I'm wondering if the MoCA-less coax segment hanging off that other splitter would affect performance, or if it will have no effect since no MoCA nodes are present anywhere off that output.)

 

[krkaufman]

Guess I will try them and resell if I don't get good bandwidth.

If you try your setup using the MSAT-2 splitters, keep them in mind as the first necessary tweak if you have trouble establishing connectivity or the performance is less than expected.

D'oh! I didn't really think about the model #.

Ah, so you didn't successfully navigate my "see also" treasure hunt for recommended splitter models, then?

“Can”...maybe. “Certainly will”...no.
...
(see also)

 

[krkaufman]

Didn't catch 70dB preferred on the filter till now, I had bought the cheapest Amazon had which is only 40dB, but hopefully it'll be good enough since I'm just using OTA.

It's actually OTA where the 70 dB requirement is stressed more (at least by TiVo), since there wouldn't be any expectation of a neighboring 40 dB MoCA filter to bump the aggregate attenuation between MoCA networks above 70 dB. What with MoCA allowing 57 dB loss between nodes, one could expect some amount of MoCA signal leaking through a 40 dB MoCA filter and out the antenna.

It's unlikely you get a visit from the FCC; just figured I'd try to clarify.

 

[GnatGoSplat]

If you try your setup using the MSAT-2 splitters, keep them in mind as the first necessary tweak if you have trouble establishing connectivity or the performance is less than expected.


Ah, so you didn't successfully navigate my "see also" treasure hunt for recommended splitter models, then?

​

What is the important spec I should be looking at? Insertion Loss? The MSAT-2 from 950-1820MHz is "20 dB Min". Antronix is 975-1350MHz is "Max/Min <28, Typ 23" and 1350-1675 "Max/Min <25, Typ 16". Is that hugely different?

I did see those models, but as is typical for me, I tried to save a buck, but end up regretting it, lol. They were $7.49/each for the cheapest while the MSAT-2 were under $7 for all 3.

 

[krkaufman]

I'm not going to worry about balancing the antenna for now, just going to focus on MoCA.

Might be all you ever need to do if you opt for a networked OTA tuner solution, rather than delivering the raw OTA antenna signal to each TV.

 

[krkaufman]

What is the important spec I should be looking at?

See my prior post, including the "see also" path.

 

[GnatGoSplat]

See my prior post, including the "see also" path.

None of the datasheets for any splitters list a spec for "port isolation". I looked for it, but didn't find it. One has "isolation" and the other one "isolation loss". I don't know if either or neither of those are the same or not.

It's actually OTA where the 70 dB requirement is stressed more (at least by TiVo), since there wouldn't be any expectation of a neighboring 40 dB MoCA filter to bump the aggregate attenuation between MoCA networks above 70 dB. What with MoCA allowing 57 dB loss between nodes, one could expect some amount of MoCA signal leaking through a 40 dB MoCA filter and out the antenna.

It's unlikely you get a visit from the FCC; just figured I'd try to clarify.

Is not broadcasting back through the antenna the only reason to need a higher dB filter?
I'll likely need an antenna amplifier (currently using one now, in fact), and I read MoCA can't back feed through an amplifier anyway.

 

[krkaufman]

Also debating whether it's worth purchasing some compression fittings and tool. Whole house has twist-on fittings which I distinctly recall had a habit of coming off whenever I tried correctly rewiring the splitters in the junction boxes and had to get real aggressive on the cramming. I also don't like getting stuck by stray wire strands coming out the backs of them. Not a huge fan of those twist-on fittings.

Depending on what the MoCA stats indicate, and how your MoCA network performs based on what MoCA nodes are powered-up, this might be the second thing to attempt (after MSAT-2 replacement, but before trying a MoCA repeater setup).

p.s. Good diagram update, by the way. Thanks for that clarity.

 

[krkaufman]

None of the datasheets for any splitters list a spec for "port isolation". I looked for it, but didn't find it. One has "isolation"

Yeah, looks like the GHS-PRO-M datasheet just calls it "isolation." You'll note that the "isolation" specs flip between "minimum" and "maximum" for the sub-MoCA and MoCA frequency ranges, respectively.