New Router working as AP

[hilikusrt]

Hi there,

I am looking for a new Router which I am only going to use as a WIFI Access Point.
Currently I am using an Apple Airport Extreme 5th gen which is breaking down slowly (2,4 GHz Radio went dark, 5GHz Radio has outages for a few weeks).

The new Access Point will be connected via GBit to my ISPs Router (which has shirtty WiFi) and provide the WiFi.

I have these clients using WiFi:
2 iPhone 5s
2 iPads (4th gen and soon the new Air thing)
1 Android Smartphone
1 Desktop PC (wireless n)
The rest (including the plex server) is wired.

These are my priorities in a new router in order of importance:
1. Configurable as an Access Point.
2. working flawlessly with that Apple stuff (Airplay, Airprint and so on)
3. Stability (this was the reason, I got that overpriced Airport Extreme in the first place and I have to admit: It delivered until recently)
4. Coverage
5. Speed (two, better three Full HD streams should be possible)

Both 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz networks should provide good coverage, both vertically and horizontally. My Extreme is at its limit here. It just barely provides enough coverage.
I have no intention of tinkering in the new APs settings much. I would like "set and forget" but I don't mind setting it up and doing Firmware Updates from time to time. What I absolutely don't want is a WiFi connection which drops from time to time for no good reason.

The iOS devices are used for streaming from my local Plex server. This is the main reason I want speed. I don't think this will be a big issue since my Extreme provided that just fine (at least with two Full HD streams).
Also I would like to be able to surf the internet on my lawn, so it doesn't need to be very speedy at far distances. This is where I need improvement over my Extreme.

At this point there are no "ac" devices here but you never know and I basically use these things until they break down or get too slow (which only happened to my trusty DIR 635).

What i don't need:
- NAS Performance
- fancy QoS stuff (my ISPs Router provides that)
- VPN functionalty

From the reviews here I picked out these four candidates (but I am open to suggestions):
- Netgear Nighthawk X4 (188€)
- ASUS RT-AC87U (206€)
- Netgear Nighthawk R7000 (159€)
- ASUS RT-AC68U (169€)

I read all the reviews on snb but they are at least two months old. Since the new routers basically ship as beta gear I thought maybe two months later they smoothed out the quirks. I am guessing all four are configurable as an AP?

So the question is: Which one should I get?

thanks a lot!

 

[thiggins]

Any router can be configured as an access point
http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wire...onvert-a-wireless-router-into-an-access-point

If you want stability, stay away from the AC2300 and AC3200 products. From your list, that leaves the R7000 and RT-AC68U

 

[hilikusrt]

Any router can be configured as an access point
http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wirel...n-access-point

I thought as much.

From your list, that leaves the R7000 and RT-AC68U

Since you didn't lean to a specific product from my list, that leaves two possiblities to me:
1. They are both on par regarding stability, compatibilty, range and speed and I should get the cheaper one.
2. You wouldn't get neither and have a different recommendation, in which case I am eager to know which one. As I said, I am open to suggestions.

So, which one is it?

thanks

 

[thiggins]

I don't have a recommendation. I don't use any products I review long enough to comment on stability or compatibility. Range and throughput are covered in the Charts and Rankers.

 

[L&LD]

From your listed choices, the ASUS RT-AC87U (206€) or the ASUS RT-AC68U (169€) are the only two I would be considering.

Buy both if you can with full return no cost privileges and keep the one that performs better for you now.

It may even turn out the 37€ more expensive model is superior for your needs.

But with either, I suggest running the RMerlin firmware.

http://forums.smallnetbuilder.com/showthread.php?t=7846

or the latest beta at,

http://forums.smallnetbuilder.com/showthread.php?t=20178


To give the routers a fighting chance at giving you the best they possibly can right now.

 

[hilikusrt]

I ordered the R7000 now based on the reviews.
I am sure the ASUS would have been great too but as I said, I am not planning on tinkering with the firmware much or installing beta firmwares.

I will give a feedback as soon as it arrives and I have it working a few days.

 

[hilikusrt]

Just wanted to give a quick preliminary feedback:

In installed the router on saturday, flashed the newest stock firmware, configured it and it has been up and running since then without a hiccup.
Range is good, 5 GHz throughput is significantly better und my n devices (around 30% to 50%) and 2,4 GHz range also improved.
Three 20 MBit video streams (from a wired server) to three iOS devices ran flawlessly. Great.

The configuration screen is, well, not so great. I personally found the configuration screen on my old dlink (635) the best yet. But it gets the job done.

If I choose Europe, I cannot use the channels above 48 (although they are aloud, using DFS and TPC) here.
If I set the region to Japan, it works.
Also there is no option for Auto Channel on 5 GHz which I find very weird.


To sum it up: Works just fine and without any outage so far. Firmware still needs some love from the developers which is kind of sad, given that the product is out for over a year now.

I will give another update, when two weeks have passed.

 

[azazel1024]

Out of curiosity where are you located (I assume Europe)? You should only be selecting the region where you actually live.

As for channels higher than 48 allowed with DFS, very, very few consumer wifi products support DFS at this time. This isn't likely to change in the near future unfortunately.

 

[hilikusrt]

I live in Europe, Germany.

Actually, the Netgear supports DFS. It even says so, when you switch to a higher channel manually. It just doesn't support the higher channels with DFS in Europe.
So, as long as this is not fixed, I guess Japan is as good as it gets
They pretty much have the same regulations as in Europe anyway.

I guess that means, the Apple Router is a very good localized example. Who would have thought that Apple sets a positive example regarding standards...

 

[hilikusrt]

As promised, my feedback after two weeks of use:
Two wired PCs (one Mac), two wireless PCs, four iOS devices, one Windows Phone, one wired Printer (HP 8600).
R7000 working as an AP, DHCP server disabled.
All measurements are from where I live. It is an old house with very humid and thick brick walls. There are not too many 2,4 GHz networks nearby (usually 3) and on 5 GHz I am the only one.

Pro:

• The r7000 is stable. In terms of data transferring, nothing broke it down. It didn't reboot one and it didn't lock up. Throughputs and connection were stable with all 4 iOS devices, one Windows phone and two WiFi connected PCs.
• Airplay and Airprint works flawlessly.
• WiFi Throughput is very good. My fifth gen Airport Extreme couldn't handle 3 simltanious 20 MBit HD Streams without buffering on one device (Server is wired), the r7000 handles four. All devices are connected on the 5 GHz band. None of them has ac by the way.
• Good God, thank you for the option to switch out this army of LED lights on the router.

Con:

• The Firmware still needs a lot of work. No DFS support in Europe, which means no channel above 48. Also no Auto Channel support in Europe. I switched to Japan and so far it works great, but still I find it unsettling that the firmware is somewhat "not finished". Given that this should be implemented in "n" standard already makes it even worse.
• The options in the UI are arranged a bit ..... off for my taste. Example: The Modes AP, Bridge and Router are on three different screens, two of those in advanced settings. I really don't get it. I think one should chose the basic operating mode from one screen and go on from there.
• The genie App is a joke. I tried it before writing here and it successfully forced the router to reboot by just tapping on some screens. This happened several times on two different iOS devices. I like the idea with the QR scanner for the WPA passphrase but in this state the App is a hazard to the router imho.
• Guest network in AP mode can be activated and connected to. But no Internet connection. Good job here....

a bit "meh":

• This thing is just huge and imho simply ugly designed with those big butt antennas. It reminds me a bit of this cheesy Gaming Gear with really "bad butt" designs and lighting. In this I think it should be considered when buying one, because hiding an AP away is not gonna help the WiFi coverage. I really liked the flat clean design from the Extreme. But to be hones the new fallus design of the extreme isn't so great either.
• Range is better than on the fifth gen Airport Extreme. But honestly not by much. I expected far better range from those screaming bis butt antennas. Since indoors is no problem for either (it is afterall a 75qm square shaped flat and the AP sits right in the center) I "tested" it in the yard. In both 5 GHz and 2,4 GHz I gained a few meters but nothing more. Tested with iPhone 5s. I am really surprised about this.

So am I satisfied with the router? Yes. It does the job I bought it for and it does it well and reliable. So I will keep it. The range is a bit better and good enough, the WiFi is rock solid and really fast (on both radios faster than the extreme). And that is what I was going for after all. Nothing fancy, just that.
Still, after one year(!!) on the market, the Firmware still seems to be a work in progress. I learned that you can even do Time Machine Backups on the device but honestly I would never ever trust my backups to a Firmware this flawed. USB Backups are much faster anyways...

Would I buy the r7000 again? I have to say no. Two weeks after I would probably give the Airport Extreme ac a shot. From what I experienced I don't expect the range to be much worse and the throughput fast enough anyway (I would still be using my fifth gen if it hadn't started dying in me). Granted, it doesn't support the shipload of features the netgear or the Asus offers and the firmware has it's one quirks (IPv6 anyone?). But I am just assuming that the new Airport just won't stop working until it dies. Like the old one did. And since i only need those basic features, I don't really care about NAS, VPN or some other fancy stuff. And although it lost much from the sleek and unobtrusive design from the old flat one it still looks just nicer in a living room environment imho. But that depends on one's taste I guess.

 

[stevech]

I guess that means, the Apple Router is a very good localized example. Who would have thought that Apple sets a positive example regarding standards...

The regulations (FCC, and peers) require DFS in certain bands. If the product is evaluated for type certification (FCC term, same idea in other countries), and whatever DFS regulations for that "regulatory domain" aren't met by the product, then the product would be denied "type certification" can't be legally sold for use in that area. An honest product assessment lab, and a regulatory authority that tries to enforce, is what can work.

 

[hilikusrt]

The regulations (FCC, and peers) require DFS in certain bands. If the product is evaluated for type certification (FCC term, same idea in other countries), and whatever DFS regulations for that "regulatory domain" aren't met by the product,....

Sure Netgear followed the regulations in Germany. They just went the lazy man's road by simply deactivating those bands. In this case, no channels above 48 in the 5 GHz Band.
So basically, if it was up to Netgear, there would be 4 channels in the 5 GHz band in Germany instead of 15 or 19? I am not so sure.

 

[hilikusrt]

I have a small update:

I got an answer from Netgear Germany.

I asked on their facebook page, if we will see DFS support in Europe.

The answer is "offiziell nicht" which means officially not.
To be honest, I am speechlesse and furious. This is such an old and essential feature to utilize all available channels in the 5 GHz band. And it is working in other regions. Effectively in EU there are only 4 channels available in 5 GHz opposed to 19 channels.

Seriously, how can Netgear bother with stuff like USB 3 and iTunes Server and what not and at the same time neglect the very basics?

 

[Shamiro]

Hey hilikusrt,

I´m from Germany too, you may try to get "V1.0.4.5_20140912_Lan_Try2 " as it supports DFS.

 

[jegesq]

I mentioned this in another thread (discussing the question of whether to enable settings for "regulatory mode" i.e., 802.11d+h mode in Asus firmware) and the impact of DFS and TPC-- how it's really a double-edged sword at best--and the same concepts would apply here as well:

First, to hilikurst, I just want to say that using a region setting for Japan in the EU is really something you shouldn't be doing at all, given the potential for interference with military, civil aviation and meterological radar, particularly since you're using a regional setting that has completely different channel settings for the implementation of DFS and TPC, where radar is entirely different in Japan.

Second, the official "No" that Netgear gave you regarding whether they will expose any channels above 48 is not surprising at all, given what DFS and TPC actually do. And this really is the conundrum about DFS and TPC, i.e., that the purpose of DFS/TPC in the first place is to prevent you from using the channels you've selected when radar bursts are detected on those channels. If radar is detected, the channels where it is detected are deactivated for a minimum of 10 minutes, sometimes as long as 30 minutes, and potentially for as long as 24 hours. And when DFS and TPC are active and blocking you from using the channels you have selected, it's not like there's a light or warning that occurs on your router, and as a consumer, you won't know anything, other than your router "doesn't work" and takes longer to connect (which is what occurs when your channels are "dynamically" switched), or when you don't get the expected speeds (because you're being limited to 40mhz or 20mhz channels width only). The only thing you'll know as a consumer is that you won't be able to use the channels you've selected and your router will take longer to boot, longer to connect wirelessly, and may not work at all for a period of time depending on the severity of the presence of radar.

So from a device manufacturer's point of view, one that markets primarily to the SOHO consumer market, the impact of DFS and TPC isn't a panacea at all, and far from it, it's a consumer relations nightmare in the making, because people will be calling, emailing and posting all over message boards that their routers "don't work" or "work like crap", complaining they have no connectivity, or that their routers are dropping connections constantly, and they won't know why. You can imagine the kind of public relations issues that would pose for a company like Netgear...or for Asus, or any other consumer wireless router manufacturer. So they've done what they know at the moment to limit the issue, and have decided they just won't make those channels available until there's a better technical solution or more frequencies are made available that won't require a solution like DFS and TPC.

I'm actually surprised that Netgear is still offering official firmware updates that allow an end-user to change regions, thus exposing channels that are technically not authorized for use in the region you are currently using your router. For example, the Japan region setting exposes channel 14 in the 2.4ghz band, and that channel is definitely not authorized for unlicensed use in the EU or the US in consumer routers. Indeed, the ETSI (EU equivalent of the FCC) regulations actually now require manufacturers such as Netgear to insure that their routers are only sold in a state that does not allow the region to be altered (or for transmit power to be raised above the regional limits), and to not provide such firmware that allows the region to be changed.

I agree with Hilikurst that it's an issue with the 5ghz band in the EU that router manufacturers only provide 4 channels and thus there's really only one way to get an 80mhz channel at the moment, at least reliably (and by that I mean without DFS and TPC causing channels to drop). But I think anger or outrage are largely misplaced. It's not just Netgear, but instead virtually every consumer-oriented manufacturer is doing the same thing in order to actually avoid the impacts that DFS and TPC cause when radar is present and detected.

Simply put, if you can avoid it, you don't want to be using channels that also are subject to radar bursts either because of the impacts of DFS and TPC, or if you're not using DFS and TPC properly implemented, your router is actually posing a safety hazard to military, civil and weather radar itself. A signal as low as 100mw can throw off Doppler radar completely, or potentially interfere with civil aviation safety.

 

[hilikusrt]

Hello jegesq, I am aware of the DFS/TPCs disadvantages.
After all, my old Airport Exreme supported it and from time to time switched the 5 GHz channel which I experienced with short disconnect (about two minutes).

I don't believe that your explanations are the reason for Netgear. And these are my reasons:
- The R7000 actually supports DFS/TPC when in other regions (it even warns you about the disadvantages, when you choose Auto channel mode in the Japan region).
- The new R8000 will support DFS/TPC in EU.

Even if the reason for not supporting DFS/TPC in EU was "let't not do it, those Europeans will only complain about disconnects", I expect this former flagship SOHO Router from Netgear to at least leave that decision to the user.

 

[S_D]

I asked this question of Netgear via their support team, and was staggered to get the same response. It's the reason I sent the R7000 straight back and got an AC68U instead (also just running as an AP). Very happy with the later!

 

[stevech]

No vendor should use DFS or TPC unless the region they are selling into has requirements for such.

Now, with region-agnostic retailers, practically, how can regulations be enforced other than by the honor system? Put a GPS in the router?