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AP Roaming & Mixed WPA2 Modes

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designmule

Occasional Visitor
Hello, I'm a long time lurker, first time poster.

My iPhone 5s does not seem to roam well between my two access points. I frequently have to turn off the wifi on the iPhone and then turn it back on to get a decent network connection after walking to a different part of the house.

Both of my APs are setup using the same SSID. One access point is my Google Fiber "TV Box" which has WPA2 security and the other a Cisco EA2700 (configured as an AP) which has WPA2 Personal or WPA2 Corporate (or whatever it's called) security.

I've read suggestions in less technical forums (apple) that differing security modes can cause devices to have trouble roaming from APs. Is this true?

How concerned should I be that my APs are from different manufacturers?

Thanks for your help
Matt
 
Different manufacturers shouldn't be an issue at all.

Different security modes might possibly be causing an issue.

I generally find my iPhone 5 roams very well (actually all of my devices) between my access points in and outside of my house.

One of the things to keep in mind though is there is going to have to be a certain signal strength difference before it'll switch. With iOS the current access point seems to need to be below roughly -60dBm (which is roughly 2 of 3 Wifi bars) and the other AP needs to be at least 10-15dBm stronger

So if the current one still has a relatively strong signal, it won't roam, or if the new one is still too weak, it won't roam to the new one.

Also the more pronounced the difference in signal strengths is, the sooner it'll decide to switch. At best I see my iPhone 5 taking 6-7 seconds to switch access points, even when there is a clear 30+dBm difference in signal strengths between the near and current connected Access Points. More minor signal strength differences and it might stick around for 10, 15, 20+ seconds.

With my house there is a fairly clear "dividing line" where signal strengths plumet/jump between my router and access point due to the construction of my house..
 
Try using different SSIDs on each radio and make sure the two radios are on different channels.

Some people have success using the same SSIDs others don't.
 
Thank you for the tips.

I'll have to take a look at the signal strength to see if there is enough difference in strength between the two APs to trigger and hand-off when I get home tonight.

I do have the APs set manually to different channels I based those channels on what appeared to have the least interference in the area of the house where I would use each AP. Unfortunately, it seems that both my neighbors (one of whom has four APs) have their APs configured to automatically change channels so where at one point I had little interference now I have significant interference.

I've read some of the differing opinions of same name APs vs. different name APs. I've always gone with one but not for any particular reason. If I continue to have trouble I'll give it a shot.
 
Ok, I have the two APs, one I'll call LRAP (living room access point) and one I'll call BRAP (bedroom access point).

When sitting in the living room the signal strength of LRAP is -50dB. The signal strength of BRAP is -68dB.

when sitting in the my office (which is nearer to BRAP than LRAP) the signal strength of LRAP is -71dB. The signal strength of BRAP is -64dB.

It sounds like the issue might be related to there not being enough difference in signal strength between the two APs. Am I interpreting that correctly? Neither of my APs give me the ability to control the power output by the AP. Is there anything else I can do/should do?

Regarding the 2.4Ghz vs. 5Ghz question, I have all of my SSIDs named the same so I do not know which one I am on.
 
In the second situation, there is deffinitely not enough signal strength difference to trigger a switch between the access points. In the former there might be, there might not be. I'd call it vaguely border line.

As for what you can do, can you relocate the access points? Ignoring things that might cause increased wifi absorbtion, the best option is generally the locate the access points as geographically seperate as possible. Placing them close together is generally going to result in the signal strengths being too similar, even if one is a bit stronger than the other.

So, for example placing them at opposite ends of the house.

For different SSID names, that'll generally prevent roaming entirely unless the one SSID drops so low in signal strength you can't connect to it at all. The only way you'll roam then is through manual selection of the SSID (iOS, OSX, Windows and Android all treat seperate SSIDs as seperate networks and generally treat the same SSID across different APs as the same network, though you can still have issues related to roaming between APs on the same SSID depending on the application, but that is an application issue. Example, Facetime disconnects if you roam between access points, but Netflix is just hunky dory).
 
Hello, I'm a long time lurker, first time poster.

My iPhone 5s does not seem to roam well between my two access points. I frequently have to turn off the wifi on the iPhone and then turn it back on to get a decent network connection after walking to a different part of the house.

Both of my APs are setup using the same SSID. One access point is my Google Fiber "TV Box" which has WPA2 security and the other a Cisco EA2700 (configured as an AP) which has WPA2 Personal or WPA2 Corporate (or whatever it's called) security.

I've read suggestions in less technical forums (apple) that differing security modes can cause devices to have trouble roaming from APs. Is this true?

How concerned should I be that my APs are from different manufacturers?

Thanks for your help
Matt

Hi Matt - you should be fine with the Same SSID on both access points, and common passphrases.

One thing to watch out for is the WPA/WPA2 mixed mode that Linksys offers on their older AP's, make sure that it is WPA2-AES specifically.

Check to ensure that the SSID's are exactly the same, e.g. no space/spaces at the end of one (spaces count)

Also check to ensure than the DHCP server is disabled in the Linksys box, and that the linksys box has a static IP outside of the DHCP range provided by the Google Fiber box.

If one uses different SSID's and/or passphrases, then this is not roaming, and you'll have to lose one before the device can attach to the other.
 
I've got the Linksys in bridge mode which disables the internal DHCP, NAT filtering, etc. However, the IP address assigned to the Linksys is done so via DHCP. I'm not sure why that would be a problem though. I've gone the static IP route for network devices which require a login for admin purposes in the past and have at time found it to be a pain if I inadvertently assign the wrong address to a device so on this go round (new house) I've let all devices receive an IP address via DHCP and accessed them via friendly name (if that is the right term).

The house is three stories. Two above ground, one below. I've kept this conversation limited to the top two floors as this is my major concern. BRAP is located at the back of the house on the top floor (Southeast). LRAP is located on the main floor near the front (Northwest - though a little more centrally located).

At the moment, I don't have much ability to move the APs...maybe up or down a shelf or two but a big relocation would be a project. I've always had in mind that I might upgrade to multiple pro-grade APs but my current budget is a concern.

Because BRAP seems to have fairly strong coverage throughout the house, I wonder if I might be able to locate it (or upgrade it) centrally upstairs and get away with just one AP. Then roaming isn't an issue only coverage and my budget concerns are reduced as I would be looking at only one pro-grade AP rather than two or three.

I really appreciate all of the help and suggestions you all have been offering. My current wifi is frustrating but all of this has been a really interesting learning experience. On the wired front, I have amazing internet access (800Mbps down, 900Mbps up) which I would wish upon anyone who frets over these things, I just hope I can get a wifi experience that is smooth and fluid (there is a little bit of a brag there).

Matt
 
In this case, one thing you can also do since the access points are on different floors, is getting AP/routers with external replaceable antennas. Then go with higher gain ones, preferentially 7 or 9dBi. The higher the gain of the antenna, the more compact the radiation pattern from it is. Picture an omni antennas as a fat donut for the radiation. The higher the gain, the more squished the donut gets.

It increases signal strength for devices within the scope of that donut, and reduces it to those outside the donut, effectively.

So especially if you have APs on different floors, resonably high gain (7dBi should work great) antennas will increase the signal strength only on the floor the AP is on, while reducing it on the floors above/below.

It would likely help out with your roaming stuff and it should also help increase signal strength throughout the floor the APs are on as well.

Also depending on things, you can do that AND reduce the transmit power on the router/AP. Go with higher gain to compact the signal above and below, and then reduce transmit power slightly to further reduce it. Clients on the same floor would have roughly the same signal strength or a little better than before from the AP (depending on how much higher gain the anntenas are and how much you reduce the broadcast power), but they have much, much stronger receive on the AP side (because you are not reducing the client power and are putting much bigger antennas on).

Clients don't care about their Transmit signal strength TOO the router, they only care about the received signal strength (RSSI) when determining roaming to other routers.
 
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So, in your opinion multiple APs each with a high gain antenna (one on each floor) would likely prove more effective than a single, centrally located AP placed at a high point in the home?
 
Deffinitely. Its a question of what is "good enough" coverage as well as budget.

More is in a lot of ways better, though too much can of course be an issue.

My wife would probably be fine with a lone router in one corner of the house, because she almost never does anything other than facebook, twitter, email and general web browsing. Some Netflix. The 1 or so MB/sec she could get on her phone from it is probably good enough for her (its 50ft away and through a floor, several walls and a 4ft thick stone fireplace).

It absolutely isn't for me, so I have an AP on one side of that fire place on the main level and the router on the opposite side of the house. Breaks up coverage nicely and with rare exception, most devices can get 6-8MB/sec in the absolute worst location in the house by picking the best base station (which they generally seem to with the setup).

I still need to relocate my AP over a few feet and that'll effectively double the speeds in the worst locations in the house and boost some of the better ones too by a little bit, but I need to run a new LAN drop for that, which I'll get to in a few weeks.

Even then, the 12-15MB/sec in the "worst" location, when on my laptop is still a lot slower than I'd really like. Ideally I'd like to be in upper 20's for worst case, but that'll take replacing my AP with an AC product instead of the N600 AP I have right now (router is AC1750, but couldn't cover my whole house well even centrally located, and wouldn't be as fast as the N600 AP and AC1750 router positioned how I have them now). I do a lot of file transfers on my laptop and also tablet, though the later is stuck with a crummy adapter (dual band, 11n 150Mbps max), but the good news there is, it hits full speed almost anywhere in the house (which is about 9MB/sec).
 
I'll have to do some more research but I think I get the general idea. The goal would be to essentially have one AP per floor and due to the donut radiation pattern provided by the high gain antenna the second floor AP should interfere less with the first floor AP and my wireless devices should roam from AP to AP more effectively. Am I on the right track?

Regarding the high gain antenna, after a quick search I see mostly omnidirectional antenna which as I understand it means that the signal is radiated in a spherical pattern rather than the donut pattern you described. Is there a particular type of antenna which produces the donut pattern?
 
Yes, though less about interference and more about signal strength. The greater the divide in signal strength, the more likely it is that devices will roam.

So by using higher gain antennas, you increase the signal strength on the current floor, while reducing it on the floor below.

This of course reduces interference, but ideally you are setting seperate, non-overlapping channels on each access point already, so there would be no interference even if they were sitting practically on top of each other.

Omni-directional antennas produce a donut pattern. The only ones that is "perfectly spherical" is an isometric antenna, which as no gain (an antenna's gain figures, dBi, are Decibles of gain standardized to a perfect isometric antenna, hence the lower case i after the dB).

Basically any antenna is compressing the radiation pattern to increase the signal sent and received. Whether it is a panel, yagi, parabolic, omnidirection, etc.

In the case of a general omnidirectional antenna, they are generally a dipole type antenna, which produces a normallize 2.3dBi gain for a halfwave dipole antenna, which basically is going to look like super thick donut. The higher the gain, the flatter the donut looks.

That is what it looks like visualized. What you get in number form is something called the HPBW, or half power beam width. This is how far off the centerline of the antenna radiation power you can move before the signal drops to half the maximum (half being a 3dB reduction in signal). In general, the further from this HPBW "spot" the faster it'll drop off as it generally isn't a very gradual thing.

So something like a 2dBi omnidirectional antenna might produce a HPBW of something like 75 degrees, which means if you are 37.5 degrees above or below the centerline, you have hit half power (or 3dB lower). If you moved to 45 degrees off the centerline, you might be down to quarter or less power (or 6-8dB loss).

A 5dBi antenna has a HPBW of around 32 degrees, which means more than 16 degrees above or below and you are at half power. At 30 degrees above or below, you might be easily down to a quarter or less. Of course, the interesting thing here is, because the gain is higher to begin with, at 16 degrees above or below, you are actually at a signal strength equal to "sweet spot" of a 2dBi antenna, because the loss at 16 degrees off centerline is 3dB, bring the 5dBi effective gain down to 2dBi effective gain. Of course it losses signal strength faster, as I mentioned, at 30 degrees, you might be facing a 6-8dB loss, making is 1-3dB negative when taking in to account the 5dBi antenna gain. With the 2dBi antennas you might only be a 0dB net gain/loss 30 degrees off (because you aren't quite out to the HPBW).

An 8dBi omni has roughly a 15 degree HPBW and it gets better or worse the higher gain you get.

Hopefully that helps illustrate a little on how they are working and why a moderately high gain antenna, like a 5-7dBi antenna can really compact things by reducing the signal below the access point, while also increasing it on the same floor.

As a further example, if you were on the same floor with the AP sitting at desk level, say 3ft off the floor and you were holding a tablet in your hand at 4ft high, that is easily within the sweet spot of any reasonable wifi antenna if you were on the same floor.

However, a floor below, unless you are really far away, holding that same tablet 4ft off the floor, the AP is roughly 8-10ft (figuring typical 8-10ft ceilings, plus joist and floor thickness) above you. So to be in the sweet spot of a 5dBi antenna in this case (16 degrees below or better), you'd need to be standing around 30 feet away from the access point on the floor below, which is going to put a lot of walls and floor between you and the AP, and the signal is going to be going through the floor/ceiling at a very oblique angle, further killing it, where as the AP on the same floor you are on, is in the sweet spot for its antennas and they are higher gain now too.

Using 7dBi antennas (about 20 degree HPBW), you'd have to be 46ft away to be "in the sweet spot". That is only using the 8ft figure, if you have 10ft ceilings, its more like 38/58ft respectively.

Win win.
 
I'm going to have to read this over in more detail when I get home but thank you very much for taking the time to explain all of this. You gave me a very thorough answer, and a appreciate that.
 
Nope. It was good stuff. Now I understand the recommendation. There is a enough money involved that I don't want to go buy a bunch of stuff for reasons unknown.

I'm kind of looking at the D-Link DAP-1665 for my AP(s). It's 2.4 & 5, detachable antennas, adjustable power output, WMM QOS, gigabit & a decent price. I've still got some looking around to do on the antennas.
 
Roaming problems

If you just install inSSIDer, after opening the app select the SSID that have 2 APs associated with them, then go to details and it'll chart the signal of each one so you can see where in your house the two signals start to merge and what the dBm is. Once you know this, you can update the roaming assistant on the routers. This works for both the 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz channels.
 
I thought I would provide an update on my situation/solution.

I ordered the DAP-1665 as well as some 7dB high gain antennas. I placed the D-Link in the location occupied by the Cisco (upstairs, toward the back of the house). The signal strength of the D-Link and the Cisco was the same at a fixed location in the room with the AP.

In the living room (first floor, front of the house) the D-Link is 10dB louder than the Cisco. This meant that the roaming problem became even worse as the D-Link & the Google APs were even closer in volume.

On a lark, I decided to turn the Google AP off, leave the D-Link AP upstairs and move the Cisco to the basement. After a week or so this seems to be working well for me. The signal strength of the two APs is basically the same throughout the main floor so the mobile device don't roam between APs. If I go upstairs or down the the basement, the mobile device might have to switch APs but that is not a problem.

I might play around a bit down the road, but right now I'm pretty happy with my setup. It's not exactly what we discussed but it is working well and I appreciate all of the advice.
 
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