News Game On for Wi-Fi 6E

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Newfie

Occasional Visitor
Apple Watch may never support 6Ghz. Does the latest Xbox or PS5 support this?
I’m not even sure what network card is on the PS5 but I wonder if it’s even going to be AX if Sony follow the route they take. I’m sure the PS5 pro will though.

I’m going to sit back and watch what happens over the next year or so and see how it all pans out.
 

coxhaus

Part of the Furniture
Yea I forgot about Apple watches when posting earlier. Yes I doubt Apple watches even are AC. They prefer 2.4GHz and I am only seeing 65 mbps.
 

L&LD

Part of the Furniture
For myself and my customers, the choice is always simple. On the devices I use to make my living with (or for the customers, their important devices), is there a noticeable benefit? If yes, then anything like a 'watch' or any other non-essential device would be relegated to 'it gets what it can' status.

If a device is actually detrimental to the network (almost all legacy WiFi and IoT clients), then the choice is what is more important, now? Either remove the clients causing issues or put up with their blundering performance. Or, don't upgrade the WiFi hardware, yet (until those devices can be upgraded (if they can be upgraded) to something that behaves better with newer hardware).

For myself, I prefer to drop any older client as soon as I can. Or, simply not use wearable tech if the real equipment (laptops, PC's and NAS') are affected adversely.

This approach may be a reason why I have fewer issues with my network as a whole too. But one thing is for certain, after a day or two, those blundering devices are quickly forgotten without any regrets.

Looked at another way, it's not a matter of how well the router can handle the clients that are important to me. It is how well the clients behave that determine if they will continue being used in the long term, in my network.

Upgrading a network isn't about upgrading just the network infrastructure. The client devices are an integral part of that process too. This part is not something all customers 'get' easily. :)
 

coxhaus

Part of the Furniture
Yes I understand as I dumped all my 2.4 GHz clients years ago. The Apple watch will run off 5 GHz but I assume it runs the battery down faster if you use it on 5 GHz. And since I am running 2.4 GHz again I have not noticed it. I did not run 2.4 GHz for many years and was very happy.
 

L&LD

Part of the Furniture
With each new firmware upgrade on the device(s), I would be testing 5GHz once again. They may actually fix that arbitrary battery issue with the 'better' band, eventually.
 

Vexira

Part of the Furniture
My biggest question is when will full duplex WiFi be a reality, I thought it would come in with the advent of WiFi 6/E, or is that something that I'll be waiting more years for ?
 

L&LD

Part of the Furniture
Full-duplex WiFi? At Gbps speeds or better? Not until we have twice the radios (and therefore channels) in our routers, for each SSID we want.

I can't see that happening anytime soon. With or without double the hardware.

But when it does, I'll be in the lineup to buy!
 

RMerlin

Asuswrt-Merlin dev
My biggest question is when will full duplex WiFi be a reality

Most likely never. Wifi is a shared medium (unlike Ethernet where you have two separate transmit and receive wires). You can't have two signals sent at the same time over the same frequency. The only way would be to split the frequency band in two, leaving you with only half of the bandwidth in either directions.
 

chadster766

Very Senior Member
Full-duplex WiFi? At Gbps speeds or better? Not until we have twice the radios (and therefore channels) in our routers, for each SSID we want.

I can't see that happening anytime soon. With or without double the hardware.

But when it does, I'll be in the lineup to buy!
The Linksys MR9600 and MX5300 Wifi6 WAN to WLAN throughputs seem to be full duplex since my testing shows both up and down at +800mbps.
 

RMerlin

Asuswrt-Merlin dev
The Linksys MR9600 and MX5300 Wifi6 WAN to WLAN throughputs seem to be full duplex since my testing shows both up and down at +800mbps.

Simultaneously?
 

chadster766

Very Senior Member
I tested and the throughput was half between the devices.

The iPhone was doing download at approx 350mbps and the S20 was upload at approx +400mbps both at the same time.

I think that is how Wifi6 is suppose to work.

This was also a WAN to WLAN throughput testing from an 1Gig Ethernet source on the WAN.
 

RMerlin

Asuswrt-Merlin dev
I tested and the throughput was half between the devices.

That's what I expected. This remains half-duplex, a device must listen to ensure there is no data being transmitted before it can transmit itself.
 

Vexira

Part of the Furniture
Most likely never. Wifi is a shared medium (unlike Ethernet where you have two separate transmit and receive wires). You can't have two signals sent at the same time over the same frequency. The only way would be to split the frequency band in two, leaving you with only half of the bandwidth in either directions.
Mabye many years down the road if this kicks off
 

L&LD

Part of the Furniture
@Vexira, that report seems to be from 2011? If this were feasible (and many of the points seem to need 'everything' redesigned to make this work), we would be enjoying it already.

At least if not enjoying it, 'beta' testing it for the manufacturers.

The major roadblock is the required co-existence of not just 'our' WiFi equipment, but also co-existence with our neighbors AP's around us too.

This is a bigger issue to overcome than simply making full-duplex work (in a lab setting).

But this is exciting to read about. But you may be right in the end. Many years down the road, it may happen. :)
 

Vexira

Part of the Furniture
@Vexira, that report seems to be from 2011? If this were feasible (and many of the points seem to need 'everything' redesigned to make this work), we would be enjoying it already.

At least if not enjoying it, 'beta' testing it for the manufacturers.

The major roadblock is the required co-existence of not just 'our' WiFi equipment, but also co-existence with our neighbors AP's around us too.

This is a bigger issue to overcome than simply making full-duplex work (in a lab setting).

But this is exciting to read about. But you may be right in the end. Many years down the road, it may happen. :)
Well I'm still hoping that eventually it will happen, that article does state they have alot of work still at the time to get it completely ready for production which makes sense mabye by the time the bxfzy standard becomes a thing it will be possible I'm taking like WiFi 20 is released.
 

Tech Focus

Regular Contributor
Can someone explain MU-MIMO in these situation? I tested myself using wave 2 AP and iPerf across iPhone to iPad a few days ago. Each device alone got around 500-600 but across two each gets 200-300 range so exactly the same as the case being discussed here. I thought MU-MIMO allows multiple devices simultaneously connect to AP and transfer data. But clearly that’s not happening. So then what’s the MU-MIMO really doing?
 

avtella

Very Senior Member
Can someone explain MU-MIMO in these situation? I tested myself using wave 2 AP and iPerf across iPhone to iPad a few days ago. Each device alone got around 500-600 but across two each gets 200-300 range so exactly the same as the case being discussed here. I thought MU-MIMO allows multiple devices simultaneously connect to AP and transfer data. But clearly that’s not happening. So then what’s the MU-MIMO really doing?

First off, no Apple devices support MU-MIMO. (Not the same as MIMO, which just means it can use multiple antennas for (Rx) input/ (Tx) output, which is most devices currently on the market with two or more antennas.) I believe the Broadcom WiFi chipset in the 11 series iPhones and the new 2020 iPad Pro have it but it’s not enabled as far as I know. Remaining Apple devices, including their laptops don’t even have hardware support for MU. Most PC/Win laptops since the past few years and many Android phones however do support it.

Second even if you had two or more MU clients even in good conditions I doubt it would be a doubling of throughput. It’s most effective when there’s a decent distance between two MU clients like at least 5ft, I think, someone with more insight could probably correct me on the last part though.
 
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thiggins

Mr. Easy
Staff member
@Tech Focus In most cases, you will be hard-pressed to see MU-MIMO make a difference. And, as @avtella notes, both AP and devices must support it. The AP also must be Qualcomm-based or use a newer Broadcom chipset. There are many specifics to be considered.

I would never recommend buying a router or AP specifically because it supports MU-MIMO. IMO, MU-MIMO is like 3D TV. Most of today's HDTV's support it, but it is of little use, other than being one more acronym marketeers can slap on the product box.

 

Vexira

Part of the Furniture
@Tech Focus In most cases, you will be hard-pressed to see MU-MIMO make a difference. And, as @avtella notes, both AP and devices must support it. The AP also must be Qualcomm-based or use a newer Broadcom chipset. There are many specifics to be considered.

I would never recommend buying a router or AP specifically because it supports MU-MIMO. IMO, MU-MIMO is like 3D TV. Most of today's HDTV's support it, but it is of little use, other than being one more acronym marketeers can slap on the product box.

So in other words it's something that will benefit users sometimes in the future when nearly every device supports it basically, which would be like 5 - 10 years down the road.
 

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