opportunity to build home wifi network form scratch - advice?

[sdrubbins]

Conditions:
- I'm doing a major home renovation, and I can/will run ethernet to most or all rooms in the house.
- It's an urban environment with lots of intrusive neighboring wifi signals.
- The house is a rectangle, oriented portait-wise like your smartphone: 2 stories + attic, with a main front room, space in the middle, and smaller rooms in each rear corner. The internet modem is in the front main room on the 1st story. All of the ethernet lines can terminate at a switch here, so I figure the router can be here next to the modem.
- Notwithstanding wires in the walls, most client devices will be wireless; we are a 21st-century family with phones/tablets/laptops, no desktops.

1) I figure Cat6 cabling. Gigabit wired in the walls should do for wired backend networking for the foreseeable mid-range future. Right?

2) My first thought is, Plume. Three per floor on both floors, in front room/rear left corner/rear right corner. They'll use wired backhaul so the wireless only needs to handle the single hop to client devices. This way the house will be saturated with signal, and it will be relatively low-power so it won't strangle my neighbors' wifi and cause an escalating RF war. Even if the neighbors do get monstrous high-power stuff like Google Wifi, my little pods can just use a different channel for their single hop to clients, and I won't be disturbed.

But, but... Plume pods are *designed* for multi-hop. Is it silly to get Plume when I have wired backhaul and hops are unnecessary?

I think I probably want one of the modern "mesh" systems because I have read, and personally experienced, that roaming from AP to AP is terrible when you just do the "same SSID trick with old-fashioned APs. So I could do something like, Eero (AP front and back downstairs, and one in the attic, = signals blanketing the house). Or Orbi (one AP in front, one in back, done). But won't these options ignite the RF war?

And I know: Unifi Unifi Unifi. But I think Unifi is not user-friendly enough for this application. I am fairly savvy, I can tread water if dunked in a CLI, but I don't particularly want to jump in and live there on purpose.

Anyway, I appreciate all thoughts.

 

[Audio-catalyst]

What makes you think unifi is not userfriendly ?

 

[sdrubbins]

My concerns about Ubiquiti:
- For 5Ghz capability I guess I need AC Pro APs? Which are not so cheap.
- I would need a router... though I could just use my Airport Extreme with the wireless turned off - it's a perfectly serviceable gigabit router, just no PoE for the Ubiquiti APs.
- I think they need custom controller software, no web interface or smartphone app? Is the software available on Macs?

I'm finding it hard to figure some of this stuff out with the Ubiquiti, probably because it's a pro product the usual gobs of troubleshooting forum posts by amateurs aren't there...

I suppose it's worth considering sticking with Apple as well. I know Apple's "extend a network" function can degrade speed when extending wirelessly, and with too many extenders. But with wired backhaul it might be fine. Bonus: I already have one AC and two N dual-band Apple APs, so no hardware costs... just a question of whether the Apple APs can handle the roaming.

 

[Audio-catalyst]

Maybe it would be an idea to check it out properly first before stating something is difficult.

5 ghz and 2.4 ghz requires a dual band radio, but that is no different for all ap's
A router is indeed needed, as with all ap's, but for the POE part, if you buy seperate ap's an injector is included.
As for controller that is needed, but only for install and if you wish to permantently monitor or provide a guest wifi that includes a captive portal
Roaming is seamless, unlike with your current apple stuff
Controller can be run as a vm, or a a convinent cloudkey , which is a rasberry pi in size, and plugs directly in your network.

All subsequent ap's and switches and routers ( provided they are unifi) are discovered, and can be configured for a webgui or android/ios app

Furthermore remember, cost is always relative, if you pay peanuts, you'll end up with monkeys

By judging your second post, your trying to save money, but that is something different that "redo it all for my new house"

 

[sdrubbins]

Hmm, maybe the Unifi AC-Lite is the right product? Looks like it is dual-band and gigabit-capable for throughput... I don't fully understand what distinguishes the Pro. This is one of the issues with Unifi, it's not the easiest to shop for, as a consumer.

As far as money: I'd spend the ~$400 for one of the new-fangled systems if the result works well, since it's a drop in the bucket of the total renovation cost. But given my needs (a few computers, a few phones, a few IoT gadgets, 2 TVs but no 4K or anything like that) it doesn't seem to make sense to spend more than that.

If I didn't have a renovation budget for the cost to disappear into, then yeah I would probably be pinching more pennies.

 

[System Error Message]

you dont need the AC AP PRO, the AC-lite is 2x2, the AC-pro is 3x3. unifi APs are as user friendly as any consumer router, their routers however arent and i would not recommended them unless your speed an feature requirements fit.

you can run multiple cables per room. Reason being you may have multiple devices in some areas like the tv room where the tv box, console and AP all can use ethernet.

 

[Audio-catalyst]

System error message, i believe you are mixing up the edgerouter line and the unifi line routers.
The latter is rather simple to setup through the same controller webgui as their ap's, same goes for their switches, edgeos is cli based and requires some basic understanding and willingness to do cli, unifi is managed through their controller.

Note, both are the same hardware, and underlying software, and edgeos does get new features sooner

 

[Flak]

There is a Unifi app for Android (it's how I originally setup my UAP-AC-LRs), I'm not sure about iOS.

All of this info is direct from ubnt's site.
UAP-AC-Lite = 2x2 radio for both 2.4ghz and 5ghz so speeds are 300/867. Power is 20db for both 2.4 and 5ghz.
UAP-AC-LR = 3x3 radio for 2.4ghz and 2x2 for 5ghz so speeds are 450/867. Power is 24db for 2.4 and 22db for 5ghz.
UAP-AC-PRO = 3x3 radios for both 2.4ghz and 5ghz so speeds are 450/1300. Power is 22db for both 2.4 and 5ghz
UAP-AC-HD = 4x4 radios for both 2.4ghz and 5ghz and is also a Wave 2 device, speeds are 800/1733. Power is 25db for both 2.4 and 5ghz.

Something that I don't see anywhere is that the UAP-AC-Lite and UAP-AC-LR are also now compatible with 802.3af POE and not just the UBNT passive POE. The Pro is also 802.3af (sorry for earlier confusion) and the HD is 802.3at. Like mentioned earlier in the thread, if you purchase them as single devices they come with POE injectors. In my case, I started off with Lite's but then returned them in the 30 day return window when I got LR's just to see if there'd be a difference. For my usage case in my particular home environment the LR's had an extremely noticeable increase in both coverage and speeds. I currently have a UAP-AC-HD in the house that I'm playing with, as it's the cheapest Wave 2 AP that is more than 2x2 (the Netgear WAC510 is Wave 2 for $90 but is only 2x2). The UAP-AC-HD is freakishly fast, we're talking actual near actual gigabit line speed. It's also $300 right now.

Other options would be TPLink and their EAP series of APs. We are testing a bunch of AP's at work and the EAP245 has been a shocker in terms of performance, and then you see it's price. $90 a pop and was just on sale for $60. They are easily beating every other AP we have in house that is 3x3 or less and even some 4x4 APs. We are starting to do heavy load testing on the APs this week to see how they react once load is above 25 connected clients.


*The Pro is 802.3af not AT. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Flak]

System error message, i believe you are mixing up the edgerouter line and the unifi line routers.
The latter is rather simple to setup through the same controller webgui as their ap's, same goes for their switches, edgeos is cli based and requires some basic understanding and willingness to do cli, unifi is managed through their controller.

Note, both are the same hardware, and underlying software, and edgeos does get new features sooner

EdgeOS has a GUI, anything you'd do in a home environment can be done via the GUI in EdgeOS. It does have a CLI which the Unifi products do not. So you can do even more than what is allowed in the GUI on the EdgeOS devices.

 

[Audio-catalyst]

There is a Unifi app for Android (it's how I originally setup my UAP-AC-LRs), I'm not sure about iOS.

All of this info is direct from ubnt's site.
UAP-AC-Lite = 2x2 radio for both 2.4ghz and 5ghz so speeds are 300/867. Power is 20db for both 2.4 and 5ghz.
UAP-AC-LR = 3x3 radio for 2.4ghz and 2x2 for 5ghz so speeds are 450/867. Power is 24db for 2.4 and 22db for 5ghz.
UAP-AC-PRO = 3x3 radios for both 2.4ghz and 5ghz so speeds are 450/1300. Power is 22db for both 2.4 and 5ghz
UAP-AC-HD = 4x4 radios for both 2.4ghz and 5ghz and is also a Wave 2 device, speeds are 800/1733. Power is 25db for both 2.4 and 5ghz.

Something that I don't see anywhere is that the UAP-AC-Lite and UAP-AC-LR are also now compatible with 802.3af POE and not just the UBNT passive POE. The Pro and the HD are both 802.3at devices. Like mentioned earlier in the thread, if you purchase them as single devices they come with POE injectors. In my case, I started off with Lite's but then returned them in the 30 day return window when I got LR's just to see if there'd be a difference. For my usage case in my particular home environment the LR's had an extremely noticeable increase in both coverage and speeds. I currently have a UAP-AC-HD in the house that I'm playing with, as it's the cheapest Wave 2 AP that is more than 2x2 (the Netgear WAC510 is Wave 2 for $90 but is only 2x2). The UAP-AC-HD is freakishly fast, we're talking actual near actual gigabit line speed. It's also $300 right now.

Other options would be TPLink and their EAP series of APs. We are testing a bunch of AP's at work and the EAP245 has been a shocker in terms of performance, and then you see it's price. $90 a pop and was just on sale for $60. They are easily beating every other AP we have in house that is 3x3 or less and even some 4x4 APs. We are starting to do heavy load testing on the APs this week to see how they react once load is above 25 connected clients.

The new ap's (ac line) should all be compatible with .af, however all ap's come with the injectors

 

[sdrubbins]

Something that I don't see anywhere is that the UAP-AC-Lite and UAP-AC-LR are also now compatible with 802.3af POE and not just the UBNT passive POE. The Pro and the HD are both 802.3at devices. Like mentioned earlier in the thread, if you purchase them as single devices they come with POE injectors. In my case, I started off with Lite's but then returned them in the 30 day return window when I got LR's just to see if there'd be a difference. For my usage case in my particular home environment the LR's had an extremely noticeable increase in both coverage and speeds.

Interesting, I was just going to ask about the Lite's non-standard PoE thing. I guess the injector means that I can tie in to a power line, either behind the wall or just plugging into an outlet?

But now that the Lite is 802.3af compatible, does that mean I can skip the injectors and just plug them into a powered switch? (Ideally a powered switch that's cheaper than the $200 Ubiquiti switch.) Are there limits on the length of run for a cat6 cable from a powered switch?

Now you guys have me leaning toward the Unifi... but reading about the line of APs makes me worry again about igniting an RF war with my neighbors. Also I'm not sure about AP placement... maybe near the floor on the 2nd story, mounted on the wall? One in front, one in back? That way the two APs would point laterally across the house, and the signal could propagate up (into the 2nd story) and down (through the floor to the 1st story). Then maybe I could add an outdoor AP to the back of the house, facing back into the garden.

See, these signal and placement concerns bring me back to Plume. I could have the ethernet jacks next to power outlets in each room, stick a pod in each room, and done. Each room gets its own little bubble of signal, so placement doesn't matter. I know Plume is designed as mesh wifi, but used like this you're basically getting six low-power 2x2 AC1200 APs for $350. At less than $60 apiece that seems pretty good. The only questions are, how do they handle device roaming, and what is throughput like with wired backhaul. Since most buyers porobably don't use them in this configuration, I suppose those questions are probably unanswered...

 

[Audio-catalyst]

Well, if you wanna stick an ap in every wall, i'd suggest you take a look at the ap-iw-ac..
Not sure if they are fully out of beta yet, but you can build these in an wall outlet, but is basically an ac-lite, with a bit limited antenna.
From what i saw they should perform well

 

[sdrubbins]

Whoa. I hadn't seen that. That looks incredible. A bit expensive - $99 apiece - and "sold out" at the Ubiquiti site. It's a bit spendy but for ~$800 I could put one in each room, plus an outdoor model for the backyard. I wonder if they'll be available by September...

Amazon has the older 802.11N models for $55, but they look like they are 2.4GHz, 802.11n only. Meh.

 

[Audio-catalyst]

What i suggest, wait a bit, should be av. Within a month at major distri's, then build a room at a time, maybe you can even skip some rooms, due to sufficient coverage

 

[MichaelCG]

I have a 2-story + basement 2500sqft timber framed "rectangular" house in the burbs. I have two UAP-AC-LR and have decent coverage across the entire house and even throughout the back yard. One AP is in the 1st floor stairwell on the East side of the house and the second is in the basement on the West side in the floor joists. Even on the 2nd floor, we are able to get roughly 50-75Mbps speeds out of my of devices....and keep in mind those are mostly mobile devices with 1x1 radios.

Unless you have extreme speed and/or density requirements, it is doubtful you need an AP in every room. I would still run the cables while you are doing it, but you don't have to put an AP in there right this second. The beauty of Ubiquiti is you can easily and fairly cheaply add more APs at a later date/time easily if the cables are already run. You can monitor via the Controller the signal strengths of your clients and continue to adjust the power settings of your radios. Usually start at Medium and then tune down as you add more radios.

The app on iOS will let you configure just the same as on Android. I run the controller as an Ubuntu VM off of my HTPC. I eventually plan to pick up a cloud key. If I could do it again, I would have purchased at least one PRO just to have the 3x3 5GHz radio just so I would have had better speeds with my RT-N66U that is being used as a media bridge.

 

[tannebil]

If you have GB Ethernet in every room, Plume rocks. Dead simple to install and manage. Wired backhaul and low power makes almost all the placement complexity go away. I've got 6 (all wired) covering my 2500sf, 2 story house and get 250-500Mbps in every location I care about with "good enough to not drop a connection" everywhere else.

My experience with Plume and wireless backhaul was fine. It just took a lot of fiddling with placement and time (need to wait 24 hours before assessing performance after a change to give Plume time to optimize) to get decent (100-200Mpbs) performance and I would have needed another couple of units to get the coverage I wanted.

Not many knobs to twiddle with Plume so if you want WiFi and networking to be your thing, go Ubiquiti. If you don't want to think much about it, go Plume.

 

[sdrubbins]

So one setup I'm considering is: a Unifi AC Pro at the front/center/ground floor of the house, where the router is, mounted high up on the front wall facing in, so it bathes the front of the house with signal on both stories. (3x3 AC near the TV... I was thinking of running a wire to my 4th-gen AppleTV but it only supports 100MB/s so might as well leave it wireless!) And then two in-wall units in the 2nd-floor rear corner bedrooms (I found some available, they are super-slick, and they will be low to the floor, so they should cover the upstairs room plus the floor below, in the far corners where the front AP would have the most trouble reaching. Total cost: $450-550 if you include a decent PoE switch. Very reasonable considering you're getting professional-grade stuff.

BUT...

I have a 2-story + basement 2500sqft timber framed "rectangular" house in the burbs. I have two UAP-AC-LR and have decent coverage across the entire house and even throughout the back yard.

I come back to this. I'm in an attached rowhouse, neighbors a foot away through both side walls, so no more than 12 feet away from a centrally-positioned AP. And near the corner of the block. Unifi gear could shoot my wifi signal to about 5-10 nearby homes.

If you have GB Ethernet in every room, Plume rocks. Dead simple to install and manage. Wired backhaul and low power makes almost all the placement complexity go away. I've got 6 (all wired) covering my 2500sf, 2 story house and get 250-500Mbps in every location I care about with "good enough to not drop a connection" everywhere else.

Great to hear from someone who actually implemented this setup! And good to hear it works well. This is a really nice option I think, and total cost would be about $400 (a six-pack of APs plus a dumb gigabit switch). With this option I could probably make sure there is no part of the house more than 15-20 feet away from a pod. And most of the important places (TVs, couches, beds, desks) would be within 10 feet.

This biggest downside here, I think, is the rather pedestrian concern that it will involve more wires, since each AP will have to run a short cable from where it's plugged in to the nearby ethernet jack. Not a big deal, only that two of them will be in rooms occupied by toddlers/kids. Shame they can't do PoE and just mount them at the ethernet jack!

EDIT - @tannebil are you letting Plume do the routing? I was figuring on using my Airport Extreme AC with wireless off as the router, and putting the Plume pods in auto/bridge mode. Do you know if that would affect their ability to "phone home" and manage themselves? Should I excise the Apple router and just let one of the pods do the routing?

(Is that even possible with all-wired backhaul? I figure in this configuration it would be 6 Plume pods connected to a switch, and the switch connected to a cable modem... for some reason that doesn't sound like a good setup to my (admittedly inexperienced) ears. I feel like there should be something between that switch and the cable modem, and it can't be a Plume pod because they only have one ethernet port.)