These types of Apple devices/services should be outlawed. No security fix is available at all

[L&LD]

Apple AirTags stalking led to ruin and murders, lawsuit says

Dozens join lawsuit alleging Apple AirTags are stalkers’ “weapon of choice.”

arstechnica.com

 

[sfx2000]

We should outlaw all screwdrivers and hammers at well...

Easy to find at any hardware/department store, looks harmless enough.

They can also injure people when used incorrectly.

I suppose the next statement will be - "let's remove iMessage encryption" because, well, think about the kids...

Next thing you know, there's a journalist chopped into bits because there's no security...

Just saying...

Stalkers are going to stalk with whatever tools are available - I don't want to bring up that hey, let's outlaw guns, because guns kill people.

Let's outlaw message encryption and tags because they can also kill people...

Makes sense, eh?

 

[L&LD]

Just because tech is possible, doesn't mean it needs to be available. No, not the same thing as the points you're trying to make.

When your location can be tracked, without your knowledge, it isn't the same thing as having a hammer or screwdriver.

When your habits are known, down to metre accuracy, your argument falls apart as even a plate, a pen, or a push can be enough of a 'weapon' to cause serious injury or worse, and little chance of the perpetrator being discovered.

We're not talking here about what is or can be a weapon. We're talking about having anyone under 24/7 surveillance and knowing their location precisely. And using that knowledge to do them harm with a very high likelihood of being fully prepared to do so without leaving any evidence of your person at the scene.

You can try to use strawman arguments here, but the facts are not changed.

This isn't a logical question to answer/solve. This is a moral question that only has one answer. If you care about other's lives.

Can an AirTag be used as marketed without it being abused? If so, employ the tech to restrict it as such. If it can't, the benefits do not outweigh the cons, regardless of the people who may think they must control everything in their world.

You're welcome to your opinion, and I respect that. What I don't respect is a corporation making money hand over fist just because they can, when they have been repeatedly shown the harm, their product is causing.

So no, your perspective doesn't make sense, to me.

 

[L&LD]

And, right on cue...

Trying to monitor websites visited but VPN being used.

I have CenturyLink for internet and using their modem which is a Zyxel C4000LZ. I’m not looking to block content I’m just wanting to see websites are visited. I enabled website history but VPN’s are being used by the device I assume because what’s listed as sites visited aren’t actual websites...

www.snbforums.com

We don't know who is 'right' or 'wrong' in the link/thread above. The wrong party may have been given more tools to commit a 'perfect' crime, right there. After all, we only have one side of the story here.

 

[dosborne]

I just keep my frequency jammer running 24/7 except when I'm running my RF scanner.

 

[L&LD]

So, not 24/7 then.

 

[drinkingbird]

We should outlaw all screwdrivers and hammers at well...

Easy to find at any hardware/department store, looks harmless enough.

They can also injure people when used incorrectly.

I suppose the next statement will be - "let's remove iMessage encryption" because, well, think about the kids...

Next thing you know, there's a journalist chopped into bits because there's no security...

Just saying...

Stalkers are going to stalk with whatever tools are available - I don't want to bring up that hey, let's outlaw guns, because guns kill people.

Let's outlaw message encryption and tags because they can also kill people...

Makes sense, eh?

Just outlaw murder and it will all be solved.

 

[drinkingbird]

Apple AirTags stalking led to ruin and murders, lawsuit says

Dozens join lawsuit alleging Apple AirTags are stalkers’ “weapon of choice.”

arstechnica.com

Honestly my biggest peeve with the theory of airtags is basically that if you own an apple device that has bluetooth, you're pretty much forced to participate in their "tracking network" even if you have no airtags and don't use them. I'm not sure what the current evolution is, at one point you had to jailbreak to disable it I think, then they let you "minimize" your participation but not totally, maybe now you can opt out, not sure.

Similar to amazon sidewalk or Xfinity turning all cable modems into wifi hotspots. This really should be an "opt in" thing. Though I guess then it wouldn't work.

Eh, I guess, I use google maps and I'm fine with the fact that it uses my speed to determine what the traffic is like and update everyone else (and I get those updates as well). Obviously there are plenty of potential concerns, I guess we just have to entrust that they are truly anonymizing the data (which I'm sure they aren't, at least not for their own uses).

Some day history classes will talk about the concept of privacy that existed once upon a time.

 

[sfx2000]

Just because tech is possible, doesn't mean it needs to be available. No, not the same thing as the points you're trying to make.

It's part of a much bigger picture - make up a class of victims to get a political idea thru... Government's want to remove privacy and security

AirTags and Stalking
Message Encryption and CSAM

All corner cases, and ones that pull hard on an emotional response, because victims

There is a much bigger game at play...

 

[L&LD]

@drinkingbird,

All of the exploitations you point out of the broad base of devices in consumers' hands are despicable. These are just the details of how they can provide obviously flawed services/tags to individuals, at a profit, without costing them a dime. They do so on the backs of their (blind) followers who have paid for the hardware/tech side of it many folds.


@sfx2000, I'm sure it is part of a much bigger picture. But what is that picture?

Are you saying governments are pushing Apple and other tech companies towards these types of invasive devices? Are governments in control of the people or are corporations in control of the governments?

Message Encryption? Just because you can spy (i.e. tech) doesn't mean it should be allowed/used indiscriminately. A case-by-case need to spy has to be made. Otherwise, thought police.

CSAM? Okay, I don't know what your point is about ME, but CSAM seems like a good use of technology to stop that kind of child abuse. Even though it is concerning that there is a 30-image limit before it is 'investigated' by Apple, and of course, your privacy is invaded if there are more than 30 images (and they prove to be 'innocent', upon examination).

I would love for you and others to expand on this 'bigger game at play' here. Because I, for one, certainly don't understand the idea(s) you're trying to convey here.

 

[coxhaus]

My wife and I use AirTags in our luggage when we travel. It seems easy to know if your luggage made it on both airplanes and cruise ships.
My Apple watch will tell me if we left our AirTag behind when we leave. I think it works great.

 

[L&LD]

Yes, that is a great use for them. But the negatives far outweigh what some would consider a trivial convenience.

 

[Tech9]

I use AirTags as well, I like what they do and the way they do it.

An update on AirTag and unwanted tracking

Apple announced it has identified even more ways to update AirTag safety warnings and help guard against unwanted tracking of people and property.

www.apple.com

Whoever is afraid of AirTags can get scanners or whatever they find works for their protection. Outside world is a dangerous place. Stay home and careful with Internet use. Lots of bad guys are using Internet too.

 

[L&LD]

That's all well and good for people who live and breathe in Apple products.

However, they are still able to track all users, regardless of the ecosystem the tracked person uses (or, even if they use none at all, like children).

These arguments sound weak and Apple's statements sound like fluff, as usual.

But, let's not forget! Apple '...and we condemn in the strongest possible terms any malicious use of our products.'

Yeah, all the way to the bank.

'Scanners or whatever' isn't an option for people who can't afford/don't have any devices at all. Let's get real here.

 

[sfx2000]

Let's step a back and take a deep breath...

Apple and Google are working to get API's in place across platforms to ID AirTags and similar devices (yes, AirTag is one, but there are others) to warn folks that there may be a tracker. This, IMHO, doesn't really cover the smartphone that is detecting the tags..

there - it's application layer issues with "find my friends" and other things from Google/Android and Facebook, etc

Yes, Airtag's can be a tool for stalkers - and they are motivated to do what they do...

The stalking toolkit has a lot of tools in it - Airtag's are visible - as an experiment today (10/15/23) - I dropped an Airtag into my spouse's car console before she drove off for her weekly hike up in the local hills, and between it alerting her iphone and beeping out - she caught it within 30 minutes - I didn't tell her, she call me and asked what is this?

Yeah, she was a bit peeved with me, but at the same time - she's on my "Find My Friends" app inside the "Find My" app, just as I am in hers...

But here's something to think about - give two minutes, and a stalker can enroll a smartphone into a Mobile Device Management platform - and there - get access to every text message, email, and phone number that was dialed or received... and the real-time location of that phone.

So yes, airtags are a tool - but there is a lot worse...

 

[drinkingbird]

Is Apple vs the world going to be the new IPv6? A new era of SNBForums is upon us!

 

[Tech9]

Cars can be used as weapons. Many examples online of this happening. In addition to my "stay home" advice above - if you live in North America in a matchstick house better "stay home on the second floor". A normal size car will go through the wall on first attempt. Cars should be outlawed too, I guess. If you choose to sell your car and never buy another - I thank you. I own multiple cars and would like more space.

 

[L&LD]

Thanks for continuing the conversation @sfx2000.

Just because there is worse, doesn't make AirTags, as they're implemented today, fine. Just shows how little manufacturers (particularly Apple which tracks everything) care about the huge negatives.

Again, the people who are most at risk are the ones without access to any devices to 'warn' them. That shows how big the 'security holes are in this application/implementation. This is what needs to be solved before these 'features/tags' became available. And I highly doubt Apple didn't know about this, yet they still brought it to market. To the risk of all.

The only true solution today is to stop/disable that tech. But that would cost manufacturers 'free' money, and we can't have that, right.

Any justification for having these types of devices without any real protection implemented first is just folly.

 

[coxhaus]

I don't of anybody without an iPhone or Android phone anymore. Even kids have phones. My grandkids do.
All my friends have phones.

 

[L&LD]

There are literally millions of people without a phone or other tech gadget.