UPnP - Multiple Xbox One Gaming Consoles & NAT

ColinTaylor

Part of the Furniture
from a security perspective symetric nat would be more ideal since no unsolicited ports are opened.
Well I've already explained how you can get symmetric NAT, that together with UPnP which effectively creates open NAT should cover everything you guys have been asking for. Anything else is down to the game creators, so it's a waste of time discussing it here because they won't hear you.
 

beboptrumpet

Regular Contributor
I helped set up a network for a friend a while back where this was his #1 requirement. Two Xbox ones where he & his wife would keep open nat. I ended up on the phone with the retention department of his isp/tv provider & ended up getting him 2 static ip's and a bigger discount. 2 IP's fixed the problem at hand & ended up costing nothing.

Another way I've seen done is with a
tg862g modem/router/voip combo device
And
docsis 3.1 modem + Asus 5300. They own both devices. Comcast lets you add a telephone capable device in addition to your modem. Data works on both (monthly 1tb combined cap) & both have separate ips's. i can think of a few ways to link the networks.


When I've had luck doing it on my home network, I turn off instant on mode & manually forward all relevant ports to the old launch day console and let up upnp forward ports to the new 4k Xbox one. I've seeen in the Merlin asuswrt system log-port forwards that it remaps various external ports of 3074 & 3076 for the second console
IMG_1018.jpg
the top four are redirecting various ports to the same 3076 internal port...which is call of duty IW.

I mentioned this in another thread, but Asus came out with a beta firmware a while back.
ASUS RT-AC66U Firmware version 9.0.0.4.380.2695
[Beta release]
New Features

- Supported auto dynamic port changing of UPnP server when ports conflict

I personally think that the idea of auto dynamic port changing may the solution. Jut not sure how well it works or if its going to need Sony and Microsoft to do something on there end for it to work seamlessly with ipv4. Ill be glad when IPv6 fixes this issue all together--and yes, this will make this a non-issue
 
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beboptrumpet

Regular Contributor
Open Nat (type one) -dmz, port forwarding or upnp

Moderate nat(type 2)- port conflict, port translation issues, upnp not forwarding requested port, external port does not match internal port.

Closed- haven't seen this one before but it exists.

Strict(type 3) -port is blocked and upnp is disabled or not working.

Symmetric If I remember correctly is open on one client and moderate on the second.

Restricted and port restricted I'm sure is both strict nat, you missed address restricted.

Put it this way xbox needs open nat to work properly, even Microsoft says so that's why it's extremely important, at least now Microsoft is releasing an update to allow users to change the consoles port number, I wish Sony will follow in suit.

Heres something I found in Reddit
Open: XBL port or alternative port is open inbound and outbound.

Moderate: XBL port is open outbound, but not inbound.

Strict: XBL port is unusable and an alternative port is used. This alternative port is not open inbound

https://www.reddit.com/r/xboxone/co...rtsymmetric_nat_what/?st=j67ebjq5&sh=3babdef8

Just to add.
Open NAT can connect & play with open/moderate/strict
Moderate can connect & play with open/moderate
Strict can connect & play with open

I play competitive fps and other heavily latency Xbox one games. I played on moderate sometimes when I had ctf+fa hardware acceleration on (forwarding ports takes away the benefits of (fa) flow acceleration.) Personally, I don't feel like it makes all that much difference with the Asus routers I've used.
 
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Vexira

Part of the Furniture
Well I've already explained how you can get symmetric NAT, that together with UPnP which effectively creates open NAT should cover everything you guys have been asking for. Anything else is down to the game creators, so it's a waste of time discussing it here because they won't hear you.
i understand, i also tried the commands from merlin, it seems hes right it will take more that ip tsbles commands to change nat type.
 
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Vexira

Part of the Furniture
Just to add.
Open NAT can connect & play with open/moderate/strict
Moderate can connect & play with open/moderate
Strict can connect & play with open

I play competitive fps and other heavily latency Xbox one games. I played on moderate sometimes when I had ctf+fa hardware acceleration on (forwarding ports takes away the benefits of (fa) flow acceleration. Personally, I don't feel like it makes all that much difference with the Asus routers I've used.
add me on xbox lol, but in all serious ness the last time i had a major nat issue xbox one, titan fall would not work had -1 ping and time ours, watch dogs wouldnt connect to sever and a few other pc based games had issues. I have notice on pc call of duty open nat lets me get into a match near instantly, but moderate takes a hell of alot longer.
 
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Vexira

Part of the Furniture
I helped set up a network for a friend a while back where this was his #1 requirement. Two Xbox ones where he & his wife would keep open nat. I ended up on the phone with the retention department of his isp/tv provider & ended up getting him 2 static ip's and a bigger discount. 2 IP's fixed the problem at hand & ended up costing nothing.

Another way I've seen done is with a
tg862g modem/router/voip combo device
And
docsis 3.1 modem + Asus 5300. They own both devices. Comcast lets you add a telephone capable device in addition to your modem. Data works on both (monthly 1tb combined cap) & both have separate ips's. i can think of a few ways to link the networks.


When I've had luck doing it on my home network, I turn off instant on mode & manually forward all relevant ports to the old launch day console and let up upnp forward ports to the new 4k Xbox one. I've seeen in the Merlin asuswrt system log-port forwards that it remaps various external ports of 3074 & 3076 for the second consoleView attachment 10114the top four are redirecting various ports to the same 3076 internal port...which is call of duty IW.

I mentioned this in another thread, but Asus came out with a beta firmware a while back.
ASUS RT-AC66U Firmware version 9.0.0.4.380.2695
[Beta release]
New Features

- Supported auto dynamic port changing of UPnP server when ports conflict

I personally think that the idea of auto dynamic port changing may the solution. Jut not sure how well it works or if its going to need Sony and Microsoft to do something on there end for it to work seamlessly with ipv4. Ill be glad when IPv6 fixes this issue all together--and yes, this will make this a non-issue
from your screen shot yes that feture did carry on to later firmware i had an issue with it though, my pc balck ops 3 copies would bug out one would be open other moderate till merlin fixed it on 380.66 alpha 4. Im running 380.68 beta 1 and it still works.
 

e38BimmerFN

Very Senior Member
Is OPEN NAT as in showing on the consoles dash board and playing same game? Just curious.

Been my requirement as well since using older router HW seems to handle both OPEN NAT and in game is OPEN NAT on same game, however in these newer generation routers, both uPnP and NAT seems to be having issues with two or more consoles playing the same game.

Gamers shouldn't have to go to extremes to get OPEN NAT across the board and get into more ISP services and or HW. IT's been proven that OPEN NAT can be achieved across the board with two or more consoles. I've always felt this was a uPnP issue and from what information I got, it's mostly uPnP. With the advent of this new port selection feature thats in the Preview stage with MS, we are hoping that this will help with all of this. Seems the at least MS is looking more into this issue and maybe we'll see resolution for all of this. Another user mentioned in this same thread that he installed a separate ISP line with a different WAN IP address. In these configurations, this is just a single game console configuration which shouldn't see any NAT issues at all. Most of these issues are for two or more game consoles on a single ISP service line.

I believe most of this starts with the HW and core networking features, i.e. NAT and uPnP first so the game developers can build on something. I presume if those weren't working correctly in the first place, game developers would have a hard time getting gaming working at all. :oops:

All this is detailed on the badmodems.com thread...

I'm looking forward to seeing this new port feature on the xbox. If MS can get uPnP working right with any NAT kind on any Mfr router, then this will be good for everyone.

I helped set up a network for a friend a while back where this was his #1 requirement. Two Xbox ones where he & his wife would keep open nat. I ended up on the phone with the retention department of his isp/tv provider & ended up getting him 2 static ip's and a bigger discount. 2 IP's fixed the problem at hand & ended up costing nothing.

Another way I've seen done is with a
tg862g modem/router/voip combo device
And
docsis 3.1 modem + Asus 5300. They own both devices. Comcast lets you add a telephone capable device in addition to your modem. Data works on both (monthly 1tb combined cap) & both have separate ips's. i can think of a few ways to link the networks.


When I've had luck doing it on my home network, I turn off instant on mode & manually forward all relevant ports to the old launch day console and let up upnp forward ports to the new 4k Xbox one. I've seeen in the Merlin asuswrt system log-port forwards that it remaps various external ports of 3074 & 3076 for the second consoleView attachment 10114the top four are redirecting various ports to the same 3076 internal port...which is call of duty IW.

I mentioned this in another thread, but Asus came out with a beta firmware a while back.
ASUS RT-AC66U Firmware version 9.0.0.4.380.2695
[Beta release]
New Features

- Supported auto dynamic port changing of UPnP server when ports conflict

I personally think that the idea of auto dynamic port changing may the solution. Jut not sure how well it works or if its going to need Sony and Microsoft to do something on there end for it to work seamlessly with ipv4. Ill be glad when IPv6 fixes this issue all together--and yes, this will make this a non-issue
 

FreshJR

Very Senior Member
I'm looking forward to seeing this new port feature on the xbox. If MS can get uPnP working right with any NAT kind on any Mfr router, then this will be good for everyone.

Just to clarify your router only performs NAT behavior on NON forwarded ports.

If UPnP opened a port, it doesn't not matter what NAT type your router exhibits, since that port is fully open during its duration and only pointing to one device.

If you are experience your router NAT behavior with a port forward, that means your console is using a different port than it initially requested to be forwarded.

How can that be the routers issue. Lazy game companies should fix their own code. This isn't rocket science.
 

Vexira

Part of the Furniture
Just to clarify your router only performs NAT behavior on NON forwarded ports.

If UPnP opened a port, it doesn't not matter what NAT type your router exhibits, since that port is fully open during its duration and only pointing to one device.

If you are experience your router NAT behavior with a port forward, that means your console is using a different port than it initially requested to be forwarded.

How can that be the routers issue. Lazy game companies should fix their own code. This isn't rocket science.
The easiest fix is dedicated servers, nat is mainly an issue with p2p games, and most of those games have issues with nat traversal, upnp is a method of NAT traversal.


"Network address translator traversal is a computer networking technique of establishing and maintaining Internet protocol connections across gateways that implement network address translation (NAT). NAT breaks the principle of end-to-end connectivity originally envisioned in the design of the Internet."
 

e38BimmerFN

Very Senior Member
I presume NAT wouldn't be an issue if uPnP worked correctly both on the console and in router. We have seen were at least with FULL CONE NAT and uPnP only, this works correctly. Old and one newer generation router. It's where we see the use of Restricted or Symmetric NAT and probably newer uPnP code is NOT working to achieve OPEN NAT across the board. I presume and still feel that this uPnP handling with Restricted or Symmetric NAT is the issue and can't seem to handle two or more consoles. So there is some router involvement here or at least the uPnP code with in the routers FW.

Its more than just game devs, there are other levels involved here.

Just to clarify your router only performs NAT behavior on NON forwarded ports.

If UPnP opened a port, it doesn't not matter what NAT type your router exhibits, since that port is fully open during its duration and only pointing to one device.

If you are experience your router NAT behavior with a port forward, that means your console is using a different port than it initially requested to be forwarded.

How can that be the routers issue. Lazy game companies should fix their own code. This isn't rocket science.
 

ColinTaylor

Part of the Furniture
Its more than just game devs, there are other levels involved here.
No, it's game devs. Everyone knows how UPnP works. Manufactures are not going to invent a new kind of router just because some Xbox developers can't write decent code.
 

Vexira

Part of the Furniture
No, it's game devs. Everyone knows how UPnP works. Manufactures are not going to invent a new kind of router just because some Xbox developers can't write decent code.
ive been reading about symetric nat it can cause nat traversal to fail, thats on the router end, so unless game devs invest lots money into solving that traversal issue that affects more than just games, to them its we made a game the rest is not our responsibilty, im wating for upnp igd 2 and uda 2 hopefully that will be the sloution to both issues of security and open nat, or a hybrid nat type will be devloped with the security of symetric but still can get open nat like full cone.
 

Vexira

Part of the Furniture
I presume NAT wouldn't be an issue if uPnP worked correctly both on the console and in router. We have seen were at least with FULL CONE NAT and uPnP only, this works correctly. Old and one newer generation router. It's where we see the use of Restricted or Symmetric NAT and probably newer uPnP code is NOT working to achieve OPEN NAT across the board. I presume and still feel that this uPnP handling with Restricted or Symmetric NAT is the issue and can't seem to handle two or more consoles. So there is some router involvement here or at least the uPnP code with in the routers FW.

Its more than just game devs, there are other levels involved here.
thats true, and colin has a very valid pont about game devs, sadly its both parties not co operting it ends up coming down to they way upnp is handled by game devs and how router manufacturers implent it, im not holding my breath but i have hope that the new version of upnp might fix the issues sadly its bot working properly atm.
 

beboptrumpet

Regular Contributor
This is more a console issue than a router issue. On the Xbox consoles, the one thing that helps is turning off instant on mode so bc when you come back from standby mode, the Xbox doesn't correctly implement upnp.

From what I understand, one of the big problems is for games hosted on various players consoles instead of the developers maintaining servers. The new call of duty for example uses servers for matchmaking, but most if not all games are actually hosted by a player in that match. That brings other players routing configurations into the equasion.

IPv6 will bring device specific addressing with a local prefix--just waiting for it to be fully adopted and deployed. This is the long term fix as the internet will have enough addresses for even devises to have unique up addresses. In he mean time, Xbox uses Teredo tunneling to allow both IPv4 & 6.

I've seen a lot of people both on here and elsewhere throw a lot of money into trying to get this fixed. Personally, I would call my isp and tell them I'm canceling. That gets you to a retention specialist with more power to help than a normal agent. If you don't get the answer you want, just hang up and try again. It always seems to take me more than one call. Get a static IP for each console. They might charge $5-10 a month, but if you negotiate hard, you can probably get it for free & you might even get a better deal--that's been my experience. When you have two external ip's, you can have the required ports forwarded and open on both devices 100% of the time and you can always go back after IPv6 fixes the issue a year or two down the road.

One side note to save money on cable/tv
I'm not trying to get off subject, but owning your own equipment helps--not just for your modem, but for your tv too. When you own cable boxes, you don't pay for any rentals and you don't get charged for additional outlets, I have full cable, DVR, and on demand service on 6 tvs. They actually credit my bill for owing my own equipment, I pay $0 for additional outlets, and $0 on equipment rental. The TiVo pays for itself--it does so very quickly for people with multiple tv outlets. Install is easy--it uses MoCa or Ethernet. In my case it took 18 months of savings to pay for the Roamio pro and 5 TiVo mini's. I've saved more than another grand since and the service is far better--All 6 boxes share the same 3tb DVR, I have 6 tuners. Really, the only limitation is that I can only use on demand on one box at a time since since according to Comcast, I only have one box/outlet. If anyone has any questions , feel free to message me.
 

e38BimmerFN

Very Senior Member
Kind of presumptuous to say that IMO.

We don't know how well uPnP is supposed to really work with new NAT kinds and especially two or more consoles playing same game, or not. There have been base code changes over the years and uPnP isn't infallible either. It's had it's own issues over the years. Regardless, Game dev's build on whats currently available I presume at the time and use the standards that are in networking, router and uPnP. Any issues in those domains are not game dev responsibility. If something changed in the uPnP realm, It would be done by those who maintain that code. Yes I presume game devs would or should maybe test and let those know if they encounter issues as they develop and test, however still it's not there domain to fix other issues outside of there domain. We don't know what is really broke at this point. Again, this isn't seen on single game console environment mostly. Only does this effect two or more consoles. And with the announcement that MS is intro'g a new port feature on the XB1 and changes of uPnP on the console, it may mean that this is probably a uPnP issue both on the consoles and probably in router as well.

Not saying that it's entirely router or uPnP, however again, from my testing, experiences and what I see, uPnP and router NAT are the primary reasons to have MS, Sony and router MFrs have a closer look at this for those house holds having two or more consoles. Something about uPnP and NAT kind is exhibiting this bad behavior. Maybe game dev should be looking as well.

Over all you'd think every level would want good NAT support for two or more game consoles don't you think? Good NAT support starts with the base code for router NAT and uPnP. Doesn't start at the game level.



No, it's game devs. Everyone knows how UPnP works. Manufactures are not going to invent a new kind of router just because some Xbox developers can't write decent code.
 

e38BimmerFN

Very Senior Member
All the testing I've done is with Instant ON disabled. SO even with this feature disabled, I still see NAT issues with two or more game consoles with Restricted NAT or Symmetric NAT routers. Full Cone NAT works all around while using one ISP serviced public IP address. I'm hoping that users with multiple game consoles should have to resort to getting additional ISP service IPs for just getting OPEN NAT on multiple consoles. Port mapping should work and does for full cone nat routers. Its what uPnP should be handling. Handling on Restricted or Symmetric NAT routers is what where trying to get MS and Sony and Game devs to look into since this changed somewhere after router mfrs stopped using Full Cone NAT and when to Restricted and Symmetric NAT kinds.

MS is working on this and has announced this port feature coming in on Preview builds. I'm still waiting for one of my consoles to get it. Supposed to be due out in October. We'll see if this resolves two game consoles playing same game at the same time issue with any kind of NAT using on routers.

This is more a console issue than a router issue. On the Xbox consoles, the one thing that helps is turning off instant on mode so bc when you come back from standby mode, the Xbox doesn't correctly implement upnp.

From what I understand, one of the big problems is for games hosted on various players consoles instead of the developers maintaining servers. The new call of duty for example uses servers for matchmaking, but most if not all games are actually hosted by a player in that match. That brings other players routing configurations into the equasion.

IPv6 will bring device specific addressing with a local prefix--just waiting for it to be fully adopted and deployed. This is the long term fix as the internet will have enough addresses for even devises to have unique up addresses. In he mean time, Xbox uses Teredo tunneling to allow both IPv4 & 6.

I've seen a lot of people both on here and elsewhere throw a lot of money into trying to get this fixed. Personally, I would call my isp and tell them I'm canceling. That gets you to a retention specialist with more power to help than a normal agent. If you don't get the answer you want, just hang up and try again. It always seems to take me more than one call. Get a static IP for each console. They might charge $5-10 a month, but if you negotiate hard, you can probably get it for free & you might even get a better deal--that's been my experience. When you have two external ip's, you can have the required ports forwarded and open on both devices 100% of the time and you can always go back after IPv6 fixes the issue a year or two down the road.

One side note to save money on cable/tv
I'm not trying to get off subject, but owning your own equipment helps--not just for your modem, but for your tv too. When you own cable boxes, you don't pay for any rentals and you don't get charged for additional outlets, I have full cable, DVR, and on demand service on 6 tvs. They actually credit my bill for owing my own equipment, I pay $0 for additional outlets, and $0 on equipment rental. The TiVo pays for itself--it does so very quickly for people with multiple tv outlets. Install is easy--it uses MoCa or Ethernet. In my case it took 18 months of savings to pay for the Roamio pro and 5 TiVo mini's. I've saved more than another grand since and the service is far better--All 6 boxes share the same 3tb DVR, I have 6 tuners. Really, the only limitation is that I can only use on demand on one box at a time since since according to Comcast, I only have one box/outlet. If anyone has any questions , feel free to message me.
 

ColinTaylor

Part of the Furniture
ive been reading about symetric nat it can cause nat traversal to fail, thats on the router end, so unless game devs invest lots money into solving that traversal issue that affects more than just games,
I'm not aware of any home routers that implement symmetric NAT by default. All the ones I've seen are port & address restricted cone NAT, so that's not an issue IMHO.
to them its we made a game the rest is not our responsibilty,
Ah, but that's precisely the point. It is the developers responsibility to make the game work with the routers people own, not the other way around.
im wating for upnp igd 2 and uda 2 hopefully that will be the sloution to both issues of security and open nat, or a hybrid nat type will be devloped with the security of symetric but still can get open nat like full cone.
Maybe, but in the meantime the developers should work with the current technology rather than blaming it.

@e38BimmerFN I'm not denying there have been bugs and implementation issues with UPnP on routers. But when all of those have been sorted out and are working as specified it only leaves the developers who can fix their problems. And those problems are with how they've designed the game, not the which router the player owns.

I think it speaks volumes that these gaming problems seem to be a major headache for Xbox owners (and specific games) and a relative non-issue for PlayStation/PC users.
 

e38BimmerFN

Very Senior Member
Games have been a problem I agree, however the networking comes before the game and the games depend on routers and all thats involved. I agree, everyone should look at this. This has been an issue with Sony as well. I think gaming and matching making in general on any platform has this issue.

There are Symmetric NAT routers. Look at my post on badmodems.com.
 

beboptrumpet

Regular Contributor
I'm not trying to be argumentative, just giving suggestions from experience that I know work. Two external IP's along with a few routing rules should works 100% of the time. I don't know of any router that has continuously and reliably been able to acccomplish your goal of open console and in game NAT on multiple consoles whle only having one external ip.

e38bimmerfnI've read about this thread and your posts on badmodems on symmetric & cone NATs.

When I've had it working with one external ip...open NAT on console & same game on 2 consoles..... it shows up as a full cone NAT when I hit the both triggers and bumpers after testing my network on my xb1. I've had ports forwarded manually to one and relied on upnp for the second. In my experience, when I look at the logs when it works, the router is remaking various external ports to to the same internal port on the second console.

I'm on Xbox preview...level 3...I've got too much time invested into some games to go any higher. I'll let you know if I notice anything.

Personally I have two modems connected at home...one for internet, the other is a combo device with telephone. I have a total data cap of 1TB, but the internet works and has different ips for each modem, so I'm going to work on setting up dual WAN then set a up different gateway ip for each console.

Finally, I want to say that if you own your own modem, Comcast and some other cable. Internet providers will let you have two active modems. I have four or five registered on my account...they never seem to delete the old ones. I've tried plugging them in...they work.
 
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Vexira

Part of the Furniture
I'm not aware of any home routers that implement symmetric NAT by default. All the ones I've seen are port & address restricted cone NAT, so that's not an issue IMHO.
Ah, but that's precisely the point. It is the developers responsibility to make the game work with the routers people own, not the other way around.Maybe, but in the meantime the developers should work with the current technology rather than blaming it.

@e38BimmerFN I'm not denying there have been bugs and implementation issues with UPnP on routers. But when all of those have been sorted out and are working as specified it only leaves the developers who can fix their problems. And those problems are with how they've designed the game, not the which router the player owns.

I think it speaks volumes that these gaming problems seem to be a major headache for Xbox owners (and specific games) and a relative non-issue for PlayStation/PC users.
its been a pia for me on the pc side i am and xbox gamer, but i mainly reside on pc and i could go on for ages about the migranes ive had with pc games and nat issues also the other issues in regards to upnp so pc isnt entirely free on issues. Most devs will just use the tech at hand there is only so much they can account for, but i understand what you mean they should just use upnp. i find nat to be a bigger issue in isp equipment than third party. Playstation does have nat issues as well, im atleast happy ms is trying to fix its xbox one net code, but i with they would patch in upnp 2.0 support alread rather than sititng on thier hands.
 
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