New to NAS, question about formatting external USB for Mac...

[turnstyle]

Hi all,

I'm researching my first NAS for my home LAN. My current plan is to get a single-bay NAS, and back it up to an external USB drive -- and ideally I will cycle the external USB drive to keep a copy off-site.

Right now my network is mostly Mac clients, though up until a year or so ago it was PCs. I don't use Time Machine -- instead, I use ChronoSync (when I used PCs, I used something similar called Second Copy) to copy folders to a remote drive. So, my intention is to use ChronoSync to send folders to the NAS, and to back the NAS up to the USB.

Anyhow, my question relates to the external USB drive that would be attached to the NAS -- I gather I can't simply move that drive to my Mac and be able to use it? (meaning, in case of some emergency.)

In my ideal world, it seems best if I can detach the USB from the NAS, and plug it into a Mac or a PC, and use it.

But it seems there isn't an easy way to do that? From what I understand (I'm no expert), exFAT would be ideal as it works on Mac and PC -- but exFAT isn't an option for the NAS.

What is the "smart" way to format that external USB drive? Am I "wrong" to be thinking I need to be able to have easy direct access via Mac or PC? I think I'm leaning toward NTFS, because (I believe) it's at least readable on Mac, and works on PC, but I'm not really sure, and hopefully someone might share some guidance.

On a related note, when I save some Web page link files, sometimes they have a "|" in the file name -- and when I back that up to my remote now (an NTFS drive attached to an old PC via USB), those files fail -- I'm hoping to eliminate those sorts of pesky issues.

Thanks kindly for any thoughts! -Scott

 

[stevech]

If you choose to use ext4 (native), FAT, you can format using the NAS's user interface. Or you can format NTFS using Windows or OS X if it will format FAT and/or NTFS). NTFS has the advantage of better date/time for file creation/modification and NTFS is less wasteful of disk space due to optimal cluster sizes. But on a NAS or Mac, NTFS speeds are far less than if ext4 is usd.

I have a free utility for Windows that will mount an ext4 USB drive as a windows driver letter. Perhaps OS X can also do so.

And perhaps exFAT is just FAT32 under Apple colors?

 

[sfx2000]

Mac's can mount NTFS as read-only if I recall, without third party SW - with MacFuse, one can mount EXT4, and there's experimental support for write on EXT4, but it's spooky, and better not to enable that.

exFAT is a Microsoft proprietary format, not the same as FAT32 - it's optimized for flash drives.

 

[turnstyle]

Going back a step, I've been imagining the point of the external USB is that if the NAS fails, I can use the USB by plugging it into my computer (and, when the NAS is back up, restore from it) -- should I not be expecting to use the USB if the NAS fails?

If that is correct (that I should be thinking about plugging the USB into my Mac in an emergency) -- I'm not quite clear whether I "should" be formatting the USB with NTFS or EXT4?

On a potentially related note, what about this issue with files that have "|" in the name? I often drag a link to my desktop, and many seem to have a "|" in the name -- doesn't seem to be a problem when saving that to my Mac, but it does seem to be a problem when backing it up via Windows.

Does that sort of issue play into choice of NTFS vs. EXT4 for the USB?

Thanks, -Scott

 

[stevech]

If the NAS fails (soft, like a corrupt file system - not seen by me, but the Open SSL flaw did cause corruption). Ifthe NAS power supply/mainboard fails, you repair/replace and load from the USB3 or the transplanted internal.

External drive's backup in NTFS, FAT or ext4 is just insurance.

I think a "|" is invalid in most file systems within the name. Apple should fix their bug muy pronto.

 

[L&LD]

Hi all,

I'm researching my first NAS for my home LAN. My current plan is to get a single-bay NAS, and back it up to an external USB drive -- and ideally I will cycle the external USB drive to keep a copy off-site.

Right now my network is mostly Mac clients, though up until a year or so ago it was PCs. I don't use Time Machine -- instead, I use ChronoSync (when I used PCs, I used something similar called Second Copy) to copy folders to a remote drive. So, my intention is to use ChronoSync to send folders to the NAS, and to back the NAS up to the USB.

Anyhow, my question relates to the external USB drive that would be attached to the NAS -- I gather I can't simply move that drive to my Mac and be able to use it? (meaning, in case of some emergency.)

In my ideal world, it seems best if I can detach the USB from the NAS, and plug it into a Mac or a PC, and use it.

But it seems there isn't an easy way to do that? From what I understand (I'm no expert), exFAT would be ideal as it works on Mac and PC -- but exFAT isn't an option for the NAS.

What is the "smart" way to format that external USB drive? Am I "wrong" to be thinking I need to be able to have easy direct access via Mac or PC? I think I'm leaning toward NTFS, because (I believe) it's at least readable on Mac, and works on PC, but I'm not really sure, and hopefully someone might share some guidance.

On a related note, when I save some Web page link files, sometimes they have a "|" in the file name -- and when I back that up to my remote now (an NTFS drive attached to an old PC via USB), those files fail -- I'm hoping to eliminate those sorts of pesky issues.

Thanks kindly for any thoughts! -Scott

If you are simply using the NAS as a backup destination, your plan would work for the purpose of having a backup of your backup.

If you will be using the NAS to access files from though, I would not recommend a single drive NAS. A two drive NAS setup as RAID1 will offer you the protection of a HDD failing (and they will). And allow you to continue using your network as usual while you got a new drive.

I would recommend NTFS as the external backup drive format. Anything can read it properly with no hoops to jump through. Unless you'll be backing up TB's of data at a time of course, which is the only way the slightly slower speed will be an issue. I would also suggest two external drives (different brands or models) that you use alternately (weekly or monthly) instead of just one.

 

[turnstyle]

Thanks, perhaps I should switch gears for a sec to ask about the character issue...

If you go to:
https://twitter.com/synology

And then drag the file icon from your browser's location bar onto your desktop...

On Chrome and Safari, on my Mac, the filename (is: "Synology Inc. (@Synology) | Twitter"

On Chrome, on my Windows PC, the filename is: "Synology Inc. (@Synology) - Twitter"

Is the Mac behavior "wrong"?

 

[L&LD]

Thanks, perhaps I should switch gears for a sec to ask about the character issue...

If you go to:
https://twitter.com/synology

And then drag the file icon from your browser's location bar onto your desktop...

On Chrome and Safari, on my Mac, the filename (is: "Synology Inc. (@Synology) | Twitter"

On Chrome, on my Windows PC, the filename is: "Synology Inc. (@Synology) - Twitter"

Is the Mac behavior "wrong"?

Of course it is.

 

[turnstyle]

Just found this:
https://kb.acronis.com/content/39790

Which leads me to think it's 'ok' on a Mac to have certain characters in a filename that would be problems on Windows.

So, let's say I save a file on a Mac with a Mac-legit filename -- and then I send that file to the NAS -- what happens?

 

[L&LD]

Just found this:
https://kb.acronis.com/content/39790

Which leads me to think it's 'ok' on a Mac to have certain characters in a filename that would be problems on Windows.

So, let's say I save a file on a Mac with a Mac-legit filename -- and then I send that file to the NAS -- what happens?

Nothing (the NAS probably is using the same file system).

 

[sfx2000]

Nothing (the NAS probably is using the same file system).

And it can always rewrite the file name into something that is legal for ext4/ntfs...

I work in a cross platform environment, so I've gotten used to not putting 'odd' characters into filenames as I'm very aware of OS-specific constraints on what is, and what is not, a valid name...

 

[turnstyle]

I wouldn't intentionally use those characters myself, having been using Windows for years -- but per my link example above, they sometimes they show up. And, after all, it is "legal."

So, if I have a pipe character in a filename, and if I use ChronoSync to copy that file to the NAS -- is something then going to change the filename?

In fact, this now leads me to wonder: if something DOES change the file name, then are my incremental backups going to keep re-copying all those files (because the original-name file isn't seen on the destination volume)?

Thanks again to all, much appreciate the conversation.

 

[sfx2000]

Again, I'm a cross platform person, but my first platform was Unix, so I'm pretty much ok with how I name files - remember that many NAS boxes, irregardless of the file system, are linux based, so one should bear that in mind...

Here's some helpful info with regards to certain reserved filenames/characters...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filename#Reserved_characters_and_words

sfx

 

[sfx2000]

I think a "|" is invalid in most file systems within the name. Apple should fix their bug muy pronto.

One should not put a pipe "|" in any filename - to some apps/shells, this is a software command to pipeline...

Apple does escape the character in their filesystem, so I don't believe this is a true bug...

 

[stevech]

Agree. the "pipe" symbol has been used for 30+ years in Unix, Linux, BSD et al.

On file names... some *nix programs don't cope with simply a space in the file name. So commonly, people use instead, an underscore _ char.

 

[turnstyle]

What I'm trying to get at:

1) The Mac seems at times to save files that at least appear to include a pipe char in the name -- if you have a Mac, please to try my example above -- the Mac also appears to allow other characters that I'm accustomed to thinking of as illegal, such as the question mark. *I* don't add them, but they do tend to wind up in a filename from time to time.

2) I'm trying to get a handle on whether this is a problem, when I run ChronoSync to copy such files to the NAS -- if the Mac says a "|" is ok, what happens when the Mac sends that files to the NAS? Can anybody try it?

3) Then, assuming the NAS backs up to a USB-attached drive, what happens? For example, what if that drive is formatted with NTFS?

Thanks again -- I hope this doesn't seem nitpicky -- it's that I've repeatedly encountered this with the system I'm hoping to replace -- and so I'm trying to make sure to understand what will happen on the new system (in order to make the correct purchase).

Thanks kindly! -Scott

 

[sfx2000]

1) The Mac seems at times to save files that at least appear to include a pipe char in the name -- if you have a Mac, please to try my example above -- the Mac also appears to allow other characters that I'm accustomed to thinking of as illegal, such as the question mark. *I* don't add them, but they do tend to wind up in a filename from time to time.

Well, from a Mac perspective - my Macs backup to a native Mac backup server first (time capsule) - it does the incremental, and then I dump it as a file to the NAS box, and then the NAS box gets backed up... and the NAS is EXT4, as is the backup drive...

So it's not really a problem for me - and I have a debian box on my LAN, and that solves the problem if I need to mount that drive there (or rebuild an MDADM array that QNAP builds on default).

I'm not typical here, I know this... but it works for me.

 

[stevech]

re "|" and other unpopular characters in file names:

Patient: Doctor, it hurts when I do that.
Doctor: Well, don't do that!

 

[turnstyle]

I understand that I might not be a "good practice" to save files with these characters in the filename, but:

1) It appears to be LEGAL on Mac

2) Both Chrome and Safari are saving such files

3) Even if I manually check every file I save (which, realistically, I won't always do) -- this NAS will be used by my family, including wife/child who DEFINITELY won't check their filenames

So, given that, I'm trying to find out what happens when such a file is backed up to the NAS -- and then what happens when the NAS backs up to USB (which might be different for EXT4 vs. NAS).

Does anybody here have a Mac that saves files directly to the NAS? You don't even have to run a full backup, all you have to do is drag the link to your desktop, and copy it to your NAS... (at least to determine what happens for that first step -- I am also curious about the backup to USB after that)...

Thanks!

 

[turnstyle]

Just had a long chat with Synology, kind of surprised by the info...

1) They said it should work to copy files that include "|" or "?" in the filename to the NAS

2) However, they said the backup from the NAS to an external USB drive would fail -- regardless of whether the USB was formatted with EXT4 or NTFS. (I find this pretty surprising.)

3) They couldn't confirm whether NAS to USB backup would fail if the USB is formatted with HFS+ -- but for some reason, only the more expensive units support HFS+? I don't get that, is there a practical reason for this? Or are they excluding a feature just for marketing?

So, as it stands, it's still not clear to me what to about the fact that Mac files permit these characters...

-Scott