How to set up MOCA network with only one splitter?

[Yngvai]

I posted this recent thread where I described problems I had setting up my Asus ET12 with ethernet backhaul over MOCA. It appears that the problems were rooted in poor cable signals and too many splits. After removing all the splits and having only one direct cable into the house, my network problems disappeared. However, I also gave up the MOCA and wired backhaul by giving up the splits.

After testing the tolerance of my house for splits, it looks like I can only handle one 2-way split outside the house without negatively impacting the signal at the cable modem. With one split, modem goes from 42 to around 45 for upstream power and +5 to around 0 for downstream power, and no errors. However, as soon as I introduce the split just before the cable modem and MOCA, modem starts to test its tolerance limits by being around 50 for upstream power, and corrected and uncorrected errors start to appear in the modem diagnostics.

I've attached a diagram of the moca setup with two 2-way splits. I'm wondering if there's any way I can remove the 2-way split just before the cable modem/moca adapter so that I just have one split in my network and I can keep the network issues from cropping up.

 

[Yngvai]

Wondering if the Motorola MM1025 would be a better choice with its 2 coax ports....coax cable from wall into Motorola "network" coax port, "device" coax port output to cable modem, ethernet cable from cable modem to router, ethernet cable from router to network switch, ethernet cable from network switch to Motorola ethernet port....unless the Motorola would have the same impact on signal strength as the splitter

 

[Yngvai]

Wondering if the Motorola MM1025 would be a better choice with its 2 coax ports....coax cable from wall into Motorola "network" coax port, "device" coax port output to cable modem, ethernet cable from cable modem to router, ethernet cable from router to network switch, ethernet cable from network switch to Motorola ethernet port....unless the Motorola would have the same impact on signal strength as the splitter

This comment on Amazon tells me that I could do this and the Motorola would not cause the same signal issue as a splitter.

It’s critical to understand that any MoCA adapter with a pass-through coax port is using a diplexer (parallel filters) internally, and not a simple splitter, to splice the signals, resulting in the pass-through port only passing frequencies 5-1002 MHz. For this reason, no devices requiring MoCA connectivity should be connected through the pass-through port (e.g. Xfinity X1 and FiOS STBs).

So I'm assuming that the Motorola will simply pass through the cable frequencies up to 1 ghz to the device port, and it shouldn't interfere with my DOCSIS 3.1 MB8611 modem as the upper range of the frequency for that modem is 1 ghz.

 

[degrub]

you will be lucky if the isp stays below 1005 MHz. with DOCCID 3.1. Once they cross you will loose bandwidth or they will remove moca in their path. Better strategy would be to fix the cable paths, possibly run an internal cable or two. Maybe just use CAT5e or CAT6.

 

[Yngvai]

you will be lucky if the isp stays below 1005 MHz. with DOCCID 3.1. Once they cross you will loose bandwidth or they will remove moca in their path. Better strategy would be to fix the cable paths, possibly run an internal cable or two. Maybe just use CAT5e or CAT6.

I'll cross that bridge when it comes. Right now Xfinity's top speed in my area is 1.2 gbps and my MB8611 DOCSIS 3.1 works great with that at the sub 1 ghz frequencies. Running cable through or around my house would be a major pain in the butt given some structural things about my house, so I'll only run cables when I'm forced to.

 

[krkaufman]

It’s critical to understand that any MoCA adapter with a pass-through coax port is using a diplexer (parallel filters) internally, and not a simple splitter, to splice the signals, resulting in the pass-through port only passing frequencies 5-1002 MHz. For this reason, no devices requiring MoCA connectivity should be connected through the pass-through port (e.g. Xfinity X1 and FiOS STBs).

Yes, that should work fine for delivering the signal to the modem, as opposed to using a splitter. (I’m not going to disagree with that Amazon comment, anyway. )

edit: There’s still loss for the pass-band range, but it should be <1 dB.

 

[krkaufman]

Running cable through or around my house would be a major pain in the butt given some structural things about my house, so I'll only run cables when I'm forced to.

That was what I was curious about… How difficult it would be to run a second parallel cable between the junction outside and the office? It *would* solve the signal strength issue *and* future-proof for DOCSIS 3.1 and beyond.

Absent the second path (optimal solution), a unity gain “designed for MoCA” amplifier (e.g Antronix MVRA502B) at the outside junction would be a way to effectively eliminate that initial split, signal-wise.

 

[Yngvai]

That was what I was curious about… How difficult it would be to run a second parallel cable between the junction outside and the office? It *would* solve the signal strength issue *and* future-proof for DOCSIS 3.1 and beyond.

Absent the second path (optimal solution), a unity gain “designed for MoCA” amplifier (e.g Antronix MVRA502B) at the outside junction would be a way to effectively eliminate that initial split, signal-wise.

Office is on the opposite side of the house from where the cable line emerges from the ground which is also where the splitter would be if I put it back in. Office is also on 2nd story. So there would be running the cable and also drilling holes through the siding, or completely redoing the cable runs and running them through the attic (current cable runs are outside the house along the siding). Then where I would want to hardwire the satellite, there's built-in cabinets and solid wood paneling behind those so multiple layers of solid wood to cut holes through...on top of having to get inside the built-in cabinets to drill out a new hole like if I wanted to run ethernet cable there). Certainly not impossible but quite a bit of time and effort for something that isn't that important relative to other housing projects, and isn't going to dramatically enhance my internet. Just with the 6 ghz wireless backhaul between the ET12s, despite the backhaul connection RSSI being around 70 dbm, I'm still getting around 500 mbps from my phone and over 200 mbps when I test Netflix's streaming connection from the TV that's in that room. Thus, while not close to my 1.2 gbps wired speed, it's good enough for what I usually do in the family room (streaming, and only occasional work from my laptop....most work is on my desktop which is hardwired in the office).

So while running new cable is ideal, it's not worth the extra time and effort at this point. The MB1025's are arriving today so I can test them with the single splitter outside the house. If it works, then it's certainly good enough at this point for me and my uses. And even if it doesn't work, the wireless backhaul connection is working good enough for the things that I typically do when near the satellite.

 

[krkaufman]

Office is on the opposite side of the house from where the cable line emerges from the ground which is also where the splitter would be if I put it back in.

This confused me a bit. There’s just a single coax line between the central junction and Office, at present, right? One 2-way splitter at the central junction and you’re looking to supplant the 2-way splitter currently needed in the Office with a MoCA adapter pass-through port, to get both the modem and MoCA adapter connected?

Office is also on 2nd story. So there would be running the cable and also drilling holes through the siding

Right, which is what your diagram indicated (“goes directly into Office through siding”) and why I was especially curious, since it seemed the only difficult part would be getting the 2nd line through the siding (temporarily pulling the existing cable and increasing the hole to fit a second line, or a 2nd hole) — assuming the existing Office run wasn’t hidden and so a second line could be easily strung with minimal effort and additional unsightliness.

or completely redoing the cable runs

Certainly a much larger effort. But the suggestion/question related to just adding a single line to effect a direct, isolated coax line from the ISP to the modem, to eliminate the signal strength issues as well as MoCA conflict concerns … resulting in a setup with no filters or splitters*, just 2 direct lines: ISP to modem, and MoCA adapter to MoCA adapter. (*so maybe a couple 3 GHz F-81 barrel connectors)

It seemed a manageable task if just a single hole through the siding was needed, but my impression was mistaken. Alas.

p.s. Same approach would be queried as regards the TV Room if moving the modem & router to that location were an option.

 

[Yngvai]

This confused me a bit. There’s just a single coax line between the central junction and Office, at present, right? One 2-way splitter at the central junction and you’re looking to supplant the 2-way splitter currently needed in the Office with a MoCA adapter pass-through port, to get both the modem and MoCA adapter connected?


Right, which is what your diagram indicated (“goes directly into Office through siding”) and why I was especially curious, since it seemed the only difficult part would be getting the 2nd line through the siding (temporarily pulling the existing cable and increasing the hole to fit a second line, or a 2nd hole) — assuming the existing Office run wasn’t hidden and so a second line could be easily strung with minimal effort and additional unsightliness.


Certainly a much larger effort. But the suggestion/question related to just adding a single line to effect a direct, isolated coax line from the ISP to the modem, to eliminate the signal strength issues as well as MoCA conflict concerns … resulting in a setup with no filters or splitters*, just 2 direct lines: ISP to modem, and MoCA adapter to MoCA adapter. (*so maybe a couple 3 GHz F-81 barrel connectors)

It seemed a manageable task if just a single hole through the siding was needed, but my impression was mistaken. Alas.

p.s. Same approach would be queried as regards the TV Room if moving the modem & router to that location were an option.

I would still need to pull the new line back into the family room behind the built-ins, which is where the biggest pain in the butt is. Also, if I wanted to do it through the existing hole in the office, I would need to remove a big closet/cabinet that's bolted to the wall as there's only a small space between the wall and the cabinet where the coax connector is (i.e.,, there's no room to work there right now). Like I said, it's not that it can't be done, but it requires a lot of time and effort that just isn't worth it. It's a much bigger project than it sounds at first. And if I was going to go to that effort, I'd rather just use an outdoor-rated waterproof UV protected ethernet cable and just run that to the other side of the house and skip the MOCA altogether.

Reason I chose MOCA (and why most people choose it) is so to take advantage of existing infrastructure and not have to run new cables. Running new cables would defeat the purpose of why I chose MOCA in the first place

 

[Yngvai]

So I tried out the Motorola MM1025's and unfortunately I think I just have bad cables so MOCA will not work for me without running new cable.

Did things one step at a time.

1. Reintroduced single split outside, tested cable modem signals. Everything within spec, no errors. Top speeds.

2. Added single MM1025 between the incoming office cable and the cable modem. Retested cable modem signal. Everything within spec. Top speeds.

3. Added second MM1025 to family room coax. Green lights showed successful MOCA connection.

4. Plugged in first MM1025 to network switch. Showed blue light indicating 2.5 gig connection.

5. Plugged in laptop to second MM1025 to test family room ethernet connection. Showed 2.5 gig light, but internet speed test only showed 100-150 mbps. Then the moca connection shut off. It came back on after I unplugged the laptop from the network. Replugged the laptop back in. Again I temporarily had an internet connection, then the moca connection again shut off. Did a modem diagnostic from that coax outlet and the modem started showing corrected/uncorrected errors on some channels where it hadn't before.

So it's pretty evident that I've got bad cabling as I can't get any sort of stable high speed connection with any sort of splits or MOCA. I used to have the Actiontec 1 gig adapters with splits but I likely never noticed any issue probably due to the TV being plugged into the MOCA with only a 10/100 port so the bandwidth wasn't high enough to notice problems. And I had a Nest second router hardwired for backhaul in a bedroom but again probably didn't use it enough there to notice the cabling issues.

So it's wireless backhaul for now (fortunately the Asus ET12 is absolutely amazing with its range, even with the 6 ghz channel for backhaul). If I ever want any sort of wired connections anywhere other than the office then running new cable (whether coax or ethernet) will be necessary.

 

[Samir]

The typical problem when there's signal issues at the modem is that it is simply too far down the pipe. Modems really like to sit close to the demarc and that's where the router would need to be as well. Then moca to the main switch. Of course this doesn't address wireless at all and is why I always use separate access points (or routers in ap mode) vs relying 100% on the wifi in all-in-one units as that makes placement difficult because rarely is the best wireless spot also the best spot for the demarc.

The diagram doesn't give a good idea of where these items are physically in relation to each other, but one solution is to basically swap the office and tv room setups, assuming that distance is less for the tv room from the demarc which should make running through 2x splitters work.

Another solution would be to not try to make a moca backbone for basically just he tv room and use something like powerline adapters instead which can hit 200Mb/s in real-world testing with near wirespeed latency, which is more than enough for a TV.