New Home AiMesh Network - AX68U, AC86U, and 4 ZenwiFi AX Minis (XD4) - Need some help

[GMD99]

I am in the process of trying to upgrade my home network, using AiMesh, and I am experiencing issues. Below I have tried to describe the equipment and how I have setup the network followed by a series of questions to issues that I think are problems. Any help with this would be appreciated.


Prior to my current upgrade, I previously had a network with the Asus RT-AC86U as the main router, and with an Apple Extreme and 3 Apple Express routers in bridge mode all using the same SSID.

I now have an Asus RT-AX68U as my main router, and the RT-AC86U and 3 new Asus ZenWiFi AX Minis (XD4) as AiMesh nodes. All routers have the latest Asus firmware and the nodes were all reset to factory default before I setup the network.

Due to where my ISP provider’s line comes into the house, my main router is in the basement. My internet service is (Fibe) is good with download and upload speeds of > 500Mb (recent Ookla test - 2ms Ping; 515Mbps Download; and 551Mbps Upload). My WAN connection is PPPoE.

Most rooms in the house have ethernet wiring which terminate in the same area of the basement as the main router. The wires in the basement are connected to the network either directly into the LAN ports of the router or via a switch that is connected to the router. The home is a 3 storey structure (including the basement).

I haven’t yet tried to optimize the locations of the nodes as I am still trying to understand what I have.

3 of the AiMesh nodes (AC-86U and 2 XD4’s) are connected via ethernet, and the remaining XD4 is connected wirelessly (for the time being).

As a side note, I have left 2 of the Apple Express routers in the network for now. But they aren’t impacting any wireless traffic, as far as I can tell. They are serving a special purpose.

As mentioned, my main router (AX68U) is in the basement. I have the AC-86U and 1 XD4 located in my office, both connected via ethernet cable. From the basement, I have one ethernet cable to my office which is connected to a switch. Both of the routers are also connected, via ethernet cables, to that switch. In addition to the routers, I have numerous other devices connected in the office (PC; Raspberry Pi; NAS; 2 printers and a FingBox).

I have an XD4 router in the gym, which is also in the basement, that is connected wirelessly.

Finally, I have the last XD4 in a bedroom on the upper level connected via ethernet cable.

The main router is setup with Dual-Band Smart Connect, but I have no Smart Connect Rules established. I am also not using a Guest Network. There are about 30 – 40 network connections at any time.

I also have not run the AiMesh Optimization features of the router yet.

Here are the AiMesh Settings:

RT-AC86U (Office, wired):

• Backhaul Connection Priority > 1G WAN first
• Preferred WiFi Uplink AP > Auto

XD4 (Office, wired):

• Backhaul Connection Priority > 1G WAN first
• Preferred WiFi Uplink AP > AX-68U (main router)

XD4 (basement – wireless):

• Backhaul Connection Priority > Auto
• Preferred WiFi Uplink AP > Auto

XD4 (Upstairs Bedroom, wired):

• Backhaul Connection Priority > Auto
• Preferred WiFi Uplink AP > AX-68U (main router)

Here are my questions:

Despite the fact that the AC86U node (Office, wired) is connected via ethernet, the AiMesh topology network information shows this router with a Wireless Uplink Type of 5GHz and ‘Weak’ connection quality (1 bar in 5G icon)! In addition, the Backhaul Information also shows this node as Wireless – 5GHz! Shouldn’t this be Ethernet?

• The PHY and Data rates all show as zero. I don’t really understand what these represent, but shouldn’t I be seeing some values?
• The Average Transmit Rates are Ethernet - 36.65Kbps; Wireless 2.4GHz – 5.3Kbps; and the Wireless 5GHz – 6.63Kbps. Aren’t these quite low?

The XD4 (also in the Office, wired) shows the Uplink Type as Ethernet and a ‘Great’ connection quality. The Backhaul Information also shows Ethernet.

• I notice that the topology graphic shows this router as being connected to the AC86U (other Office node) and not the AX68U (main router)! Shouldn’t this show as connected to the main router? Occasionally, the topology graphic changes to show this XD4 (Office) as having a great connection to the Upstairs XD4 node! Why would this happen?
• When I look at the Wireless Transmit and Receive Rates how should I interpret these numbers? Wireless 2.4GHz - Average Transmit rate is 4.16Kbps and Average Receive Rate is 0.11Kbps | Wireless 5GHZ - Average Transmit rate is 424.68Kbps and Average Receive Rate is 16.84Kbps?

The XD4 (Upstairs and wired) shows the Uplink Type as Wireless - 5GHz and an ‘OK’ connection quality (2 bars in the 5G icon). The Backhaul Information also shows Wireless! Shouldn’t this also be Ethernet?

• Unlike the AC86U (see above) this router is showing PHY and Data rates with the Average PHY Transmit rate of 288.2Mbps and Average Data Transmit rate of 31.35Kbps. Are these values more reasonable?
• The Wireless Average Transmit rate is 5.53Kbps for the 2.4GHZ and 1.5Kbps for the 5GHz. Shouldn’t the 5Ghz rate be higher?

The XD4 (Basement and wired) shows Uplink Type as Wireless - 5GHz and an ‘Great connection quality (3 bars in the 5G icon). The Backhaul Information also shows Wireless! Since this node is in fact wireless this makes sense.

• This router is showing PHY and Data rates with the Average PHY Transmit rate of 1201.0Mbps and Average Data Transmit rate of 2.78Kbps
• The Wireless Average Transmit rate is 8.96Kbps for the 2.4GHZ and 9.26Kbps for the 5GHz. Are these reasonable values?

My daughter who is working from home on her laptop in the upstairs bedroom is connected wirelessly to the network. I bound her connection to the XD4 which is in the same room. From time to time her connection gets dropped and indicates that there is no internet connection. It takes her several tries to disconnect and reconnect before she is able to work! Any thought on why this would happen?

It certainly seems like things aren’t quite working out the way I expected them to with this setup. I would appreciate any comments or thoughts with respect to my setup and answers to my questions.

 

[JimTheo]

I am far from an expert, but a few thoughts come to mind as I, too had to sort out similar issues.
Firstly, the main router should be swapped out with the AC86U being the gateway. More powerfull processor and additional MESH capabilities. Re-add in the MESH nodes but instead of AUTO connect, set the backhaul to 1G WAN ONLY. The XD4 basement should be only one set to AUTO. the XD4 upstairs may have an wireing issue as it cannot "see" the AX68U on the lan hence the "wireless" backhaul. I think any wireless backhaul will degrade your throughput (and currently you have TWO that may be stepping on each other) so eliminating as much as possible is a step in the right direction.
Go there first and re-mesh each unit as sometimes adding the node doesn't work right the first time. I know cause it happened to me.

Oh, by the way it would be to your advantage if you invested in an ASUS cpu fan setup as the AC86U runs hot (check amazon. the one for the 68U fits the 86U fine). Some say way too hot and can fry. I put one on and the temp dropped wayyyy down.

Good luck.

 

[Tech9]

I now have an Asus RT-AX68U as my main router, and the RT-AC86U and 3 new Asus ZenWiFi AX Minis (XD4) as AiMesh nodes.

This is not AiMesh. This is AiMess. Why do you need 5x AP's in your house, with two in the same room?

 

[GMD99]

This is not AiMesh. This is AiMess. Why do you need 5x AP's in your house, with two in the same room?

Thanks for your helpful comment! Perhaps you didn't read where I wrote "I haven’t yet tried to optimize the locations of the nodes as I am still trying to understand what I have." I'm obviously not going to leave 2 AP's in the same room! Given that I am having some issues getting AiMesh set up it's easier to test things when the AP's are within arm's length.

 

[Tech9]

Thanks for your helpful comment!

Your article above contains 12 questions. Do you expect a short 10 pages answer from SNB's home network architect on duty?

AiMesh works best wired and with the same model routers running the same firmware. Otherwise you're taking your chances.

I asked you a single question, at least to start somewhere: Why do you need 5x AP's?

 

[GMD99]

I am far from an expert, but a few thoughts come to mind as I, too had to sort out similar issues.
Firstly, the main router should be swapped out with the AC86U being the gateway. More powerfull processor and additional MESH capabilities. Re-add in the MESH nodes but instead of AUTO connect, set the backhaul to 1G WAN ONLY. The XD4 basement should be only one set to AUTO. the XD4 upstairs may have an wireing issue as it cannot "see" the AX68U on the lan hence the "wireless" backhaul. I think any wireless backhaul will degrade your throughput (and currently you have TWO that may be stepping on each other) so eliminating as much as possible is a step in the right direction.
Go there first and re-mesh each unit as sometimes adding the node doesn't work right the first time. I know cause it happened to me.

Oh, by the way it would be to your advantage if you invested in an ASUS cpu fan setup as the AC86U runs hot (check amazon. the one for the 68U fits the 86U fine). Some say way too hot and can fry. I put one on and the temp dropped wayyyy down.

Good luck.

Thanks for your thoughts. I am also far from an expert in this but I am learning as I go.

With respect to your comment that I should use the AC86U as the main router because the processor is more powerful and it has additional MESH capabilities... my understanding is that both routers have 1.8 GHz dual-core processors. Is this wrong? I am also curious about the additional MESH capabilities... can you please elaborate?

I agree with you that having all the nodes using the ethernet backhaul is ideal. I plan to do exactly that and I am waiting for a couple of switches which are supposed to be delivered tomorrow. The switches will allow me to move around my network connections and make all the nodes wired.

I realized yesterday that I had the connections between the AX68U and the AC86U wrong when I was setting up the node! Rookie mistake… but I was connecting LAN to LAN instead of the WAN on the node! Once I changed this the AC86U is showing as Ethernet.

I’m not sure what the problem was with the XD4 but I re-meshed the unit a couple of times and it also is now showing as ethernet.

I’ve had the AC86U for some time now and it has not appeared hot. I am not running a Merlin firmware so I don’t see the temps. My understanding is that you need to have a Merlin setup to actually see the temps…correct? I have the router in a fairly open area… does this mitigate the heat issues?

Thanks again.

 

[GMD99]

Your article above contains 12 questions. Do you expect a short 10 pages answer from SNB's home network architect on duty?

AiMesh works best wired and with the same model routers running the same firmware. Otherwise you're taking your chances.

I asked you a single question, at least to start somewhere: Why do you need 5x AP's?

Perhaps you should reread your post... you didn't just ask a single question! If you really wanted to 'start somewhere' simply asking your question might have been a much better way to go.

I have a large house and I have been plagued with dead zones and complaints from my family for some time now... so, I am trying to solve it in the best way I can. I have had the AC86U for some time now and I have had some suspicions that it may have been causing some of the issues. So, after reading up on Asus' AiMesh routers I decided to take the plunge and buy the 4 new routers (the AX68U and the XD4's which come in a 3 pack) and set up an AiMesh network. Given that I already had the AC86U I decided that I would try to incorporate it into the network also. If I find that it is, in fact, a problem then I can simply cut it out. How does having these routers become AIMess, as you described it?

Yes, I did ask a lot of questions because I am trying to learn. You don't have to answer every question if you are really trying to help. For example, the other reply to my post was helpful and yet he didn't try to answer every question. I get that... perhaps others, with a lot more experience than I have, will see another question that they can provide some insight on. If I don't ask the questions, I sure shouldn't expect people to guess what I don't know, can I?

 

[Tech9]

If you really wanted to 'start somewhere'

I have changed my mind. You don't need some help. You need complete home network design. Good luck.

 

[Tech9]

I am trying to learn.

Understood, but you need someone who knows to come to your place, make home network planning according to situation and select the right equipment to solve the problem. Connecting 4-5-6* different routers purchased on sale around holidays all blasting full power (AiMesh doesn't have nodes Tx power control) on the same Wi-Fi channels (this is how AiMesh** works) close to each other (straight distance through Wi-Fi transparent materials) won't improve anything. It's called Wi-Fi oversaturation and makes things only worse. Your routers fight with each other and your devices wonder what the heck is going on. This is what I call AiMess. Any attempt to help you is pure guessing. No one knows what your Wi-Fi environment is.

* - you have 6x routers/nodes listed in thread title - "AX68U, AC86U, and 4 ZenwiFi AX Minis"
** - AiMesh is a marketing name for connected access points/repeaters. Not much Ai there and not much Mesh.

 

[GMD99]

You are right... My thread title was wrong! There are only 3 AX Minis. So I have 5 routers in total.

I appreciate your suggestion about finding someone to make a home network plan, but at the end of the day this is only a home network. I'm not going to hire someone to come diagnose the situation for my home and then suggest a completely different hardware solution. I bought the routers (and, sadly, it wasn't a holiday sale!) and so I plan to try to incorporate them as best as possible.

If I can truly be convinced that I do have a WiFi oversaturation situation then I will take one of the routers out of the equation. On the Asus site, they claim that the 3 pack AX Minis only cover an area of around 4,800 sq ft whereas my house is bigger than this, so perhaps removing the AC86U will make sense.

The Mesh part I am looking for is the seamless switching of wireless reception for iPhones and iPads. My network before this, made up of Asus and Apple routers, was a pain because the mobile devices would try to hold on to the router, they were initially connected to, until the signal was completely lost. In the meantime, as the signal degraded before switching to another router, the user frustrations increased! The good news is that I have already seen a significant improvement in the mobile reception despite the fact that I haven't even tried any optimization or positioning of the routers as yet. so, I am encouraged.

The majority of the devices on my network are wired, so they are mostly unaffected by a lot of this. Although, as I mentioned, I was suspicious that the AC86U was causing some intermittent issues, that seem to have disappeared now that I have made it a node within the network. Perhaps it has been affected by the heat issue that was raised by the other post!

For the wireless devices that will remain in one place (doobell, thermostats...etc) I envision that I would bind them to nodes that provide the best signal. Thereafter, I would expect that they should not be part of the fight amongst the routers.

Obviously, I would like to set up the network in the most effective manner but it's a learning experience. I also like to learn how to do things, like this, by myself. What would be helpful is if you could point me in the right direction... where can I find information on how to optimize my network? Where can I find explanations on the different metrics I see in the Asus GUI?

By the way, thanks for coming back.

 

[JimTheo]

First off, the 68u vs 86u see this link as the 86u would be the better choice for the gateway:

Asus RT-AX68U vs Asus RT-AX86U: What is the difference?

What is the difference between Asus RT-AX86U and Asus RT-AX68U? Find out which is better and their overall performance in the router ranking.

versus.com

By re-integrating the AIMesh nodes you got them to play better. However I didn't notice that the devices were so close together. They are stepping on each other and you will not get any useful information while they are so close together. Better suggestion would be to reduce the AP nodes FIRST and provisionally position them in the house. Just make sure that they are lan-linked and far enough apart. I would put 86u in the basement, the 68u in the 3rd floor then asses. Seems to me the 2nd floor would be well covered. As for other locations, add them after you asses the coverage. The coverage maps that are advertised can be so much bullcrap as each home presents unique challenges. My home for example is only 1800 or so sq/ft 2 story but there is EXPANDED metal mesh under the plaster. Old house, makes difficult WiFi coverage. I have one AP on main floor and another on the second floor. Everything works seamlessly.

As for over saturation, 5gz band has enough room but 2.4 has only 3 non-overlapping channels (1,6 and 11). everything else infringes to some extent not to mention neighbors or microwave ovens. So yeah 5 routers spitting out signals are a problem. Remember most ring devices, Alexa devices, Roomba and most cameras are 2.4gh only devices.

The temp issue with the 86U is fairly well known. I run stock firmware so I don't have numbers, so when I installed the fans LOTS of hot air came out until it cooled down. I dunno but cool electronics is better than hot electronics in my book. Up to you.

You don't have to put all 3 AX mini's in place at the same time. Add them as you need them. Learn by your mistakes is OK, just don't make it harder than it has to be.

Take smaller steps and asses.

 

[GMD99]

I see now why you stated that the 86U is a better choice for the gateway... you are comparing the AX86U to the AX68U, whereas I have the AC86U, which is an older model.

Here is a link comparing the 3 routers - AX68U; AC86U; and AX86U. As far as I can see the AX68U and AC86U are similar in most aspects.

https://www.asus.com/ca-en/product-...5&LevelId=Networking-IoT-Servers-WiFi-Routers

I had 2 of the routers in my office mostly to allow me to test the connectivity and setup so that I avoided running around the house. I have now moved them further apart. I am waiting for the delivery today of a new switch so I can have all of them connected via ethernet.

You wrote "stepping on each other and you will not get any useful information while they are so close together". What does this mean and how do I assess if this is happening or not? As I mentioned in another post in this thread, most of my networked devices are wired connections and that other than a handful of wireless devices (2 thermostats, temperature sensor, Ring doorbell, Echo, Apple TV... etc) most are iPhones and iPads. From my initial testing, now that the routers are in place, I am seeing a significant signal improvement on these mobile devices as I move around the house. For those other wireless devices, that mostly stay in place, I am planning to figure out which node provides the best signal and bind them to that node. What should I be looking for to determine if my coverage is too much?

Thanks...

 

[Tech9]

When you are physically much closer to one node, but your wireless device is holding steady connection to a further located node - you have too many nodes. AC Wave 2 and AX connections are quite fast even at -70dBm signal levels. You don’t need full bars signal at every corner of your house. Use the minimum required number of nodes.

 

[JimTheo]

I sit corrected on the router model. I personally have the RT86u and it is fine for me.

As I am only a minimally talented amateur, I don't know how to determine quantitatively when you are over-saturated. I work under the principal of enough to do the job, no more than necessary. I have an app for my iPhone "WiFi Sweetspot" a free app that calculates the wifi link transfer rate to the AP. You log onto your network and walk around and you will see dead spots, weak spots and really good spots. In my house it ranges from around 45mbps to around 290mbps closer to one of the APs (due to the aforementioned expanded steel in the walls). That way you can determine if more AP are needed (if you work from a minimalist concept). I have 1 thermostat, 1 Roku, 1 echo, 3 dots, a bunch of eWeLink device controllers (I hate paying Amazon $20 per outlet when I can do it for $5). I think binding is a waste except for educational purposes in your case as the data transfer is minimal so no need to load balance. I dunno, wifi network analyzers may be more accurate but I'm a bit more practical and try try not to do too much more than needed.

Just sayin'.

 

[GMD99]

I sit corrected on the router model. I personally have the RT86u and it is fine for me.

As I am only a minimally talented amateur, I don't know how to determine quantitatively when you are over-saturated. I work under the principal of enough to do the job, no more than necessary. I have an app for my iPhone "WiFi Sweetspot" a free app that calculates the wifi link transfer rate to the AP. You log onto your network and walk around and you will see dead spots, weak spots and really good spots. In my house it ranges from around 45mbps to around 290mbps closer to one of the APs (due to the aforementioned expanded steel in the walls). That way you can determine if more AP are needed (if you work from a minimalist concept). I have 1 thermostat, 1 Roku, 1 echo, 3 dots, a bunch of eWeLink device controllers (I hate paying Amazon $20 per outlet when I can do it for $5). I think binding is a waste except for educational purposes in your case as the data transfer is minimal so no need to load balance. I dunno, wifi network analyzers may be more accurate but I'm a bit more practical and try try not to do too much more than needed.

Just sayin'.

Thanks JIm.

I'm going to have a look at the WiFi Sweetspot app and see if that helps me analyze my network.

 

[GMD99]

When you are physically much closer to one node, but your wireless device is holding steady connection to a further located node - you have too many nodes. AC Wave 2 and AX connections are quite fast even at -70dBm signal levels. You don’t need full bars signal at every corner of your house. Use the minimum required number of nodes.

I read that you should try make sure that your devices have a signal strength between -30dBm and -67dBm and get concerned when a device approaches the -90dBm level. So this is what I am using as my benchmark for analyzing signal strength. I also agree with you that I don't need full bars for every corner of the house.

You stated "When you are physically much closer to one node, but your wireless device is holding steady connection to a further located node - you have too many nodes" I understand the concept but I'm not sure I see the downside to having too many nodes, other than cost effectiveness. What I mean is that if I have 'too many' nodes then my signal strength throughout the area is going to be strong, and therefore there shouldn't be a downside if my iPhone stays connected to the node that is further away given that it would still be getting a strong signal. Does this make sense?

By the way, I'm not saying that I plan to keep all the nodes in place. I am testing locations and signal strength. I am looking to probably take one node out and move it to my cottage.

 

[Cheoah]

The mix of different models is what I ran for a couple of years. Flaky at best, and I have no radio traffic - relevant radio traffic - out in the boonies here. So for anyone with experience with AIMesh, your configuration looks like it could be a continual time suck. Messy.

I added 3 Zen wifi XT8's a year ago and man, am I livin right now. knock on wood, but wireless backhauls, single SSID, and nearly 2 acres blanketed with WiFi. I WFH and it's nice to get outside for meetings, webinars, or breaks. No cell signal, so we really need the wifi, and run a microcell tower.

Your original post is incredibly comprehensive and you spent a lot of time on it. Few readers will actually read all that. At least you broke it into paragraphs lol! I think a bunch of readers start thinking billable hours with that much narrative and volume of questions. Try breaking it down, be more concise as you go along. You'll need to try some different configurations, and your wired backhauls should be helpful. Cheers

 

[Tech9]

I understand the concept but I'm not sure I see the downside to having too many nodes, other than cost effectiveness.

You have to understand how Wi-Fi works. It's different than turn on more lights to make the room brighter.

 

[GMD99]

The mix of different models is what I ran for a couple of years. Flaky at best, and I have no radio traffic - relevant radio traffic - out in the boonies here. So for anyone with experience with AIMesh, your configuration looks like it could be a continual time suck. Messy.

I added 3 Zen wifi XT8's a year ago and man, am I livin right now. knock on wood, but wireless backhauls, single SSID, and nearly 2 acres blanketed with WiFi. I WFH and it's nice to get outside for meetings, webinars, or breaks. No cell signal, so we really need the wifi, and run a microcell tower.

Your original post is incredibly comprehensive and you spent a lot of time on it. Few readers will actually read all that. At least you broke it into paragraphs lol! I think a bunch of readers start thinking billable hours with that much narrative and volume of questions. Try breaking it down, be more concise as you go along. You'll need to try some different configurations, and your wired backhauls should be helpful. Cheers

I agree with you that my original post was probably too long and, as Tech9 pointed out, had far too many questions! I also agree that over time I will have to figure out what works best by trying different configs. However, having said that, I have already seen a significant improvement in the WiFi signals throughout the house; the mesh aspect seems to be working well; and the level of complaints, from my other users (family!), are down which is nice. Given what I am seeing so far, I'm pretty sure that this setup will be a lot less of a 'continual time suck' than what I had before.

 

[GMD99]

You have to understand how Wi-Fi works. It's different than turn on more lights to make the room brighter.

I will be the first to admit that I do not know all the technical aspects of how WiFi works and perhaps my simplistic view is just that, too simplistic. However, bear in mind that what I am trying to accomplish, for the wireless part of my network, is to provide a strong signal for the numerous iPhones and iPads throughout the house.

As an example of my simplistic view of this... if I walk, with my iPhone, from the 3rd floor down to the kitchen and, because I have too many nodes, I stay connected to the router on the 3rd floor for longer than I should, wouldn't there only be a true concern if my signal strength decreases so that my signal is poor, but it's not enough of a decrease to pass me on to the closer router?

However, if my signal from the 3rd floor node is still strong enough when I'm in the kitchen, say -50dBm, isn't it irrelevant to me, as a user, as to which node I am connected to?

Your example was that 'it's different than turn on more lights to make the room brighter'... you are right, my example is more 'turn on all the lights so that I can see wherever I go, throughout the house'. Please help me understand what I'm missing. Thanks