Replacing my Apple AirPort Extreme, AX88U, eero pro or UDM?

[seraphimcaduto]

Long time lurker finally registered to as a question. Like the title says, currently I have an Apple AirPort Extreme that is a little long in the tooth and seems to slow down when more than a few devices.

I believe the larger problem is my internet speed 50/10 from ATT, but the other local provider isn’t much better and is blocking Spectrum from servicing my area. Honestly not sure if a new router would help manage the traffic better but I thought I’d ask if any of what I was considering would help manage the traffic better.

I was considering the Ax88u, eero pro or UDM. Any other ideas would be greatly appreciated as well.

My usage:

• 35+ 2.4 ghz and 5 ghz devices, but only 5 or so at a time access the network at a given time
• Adding home server running unraid (plan to Ethernet that connection)
• 2000 square feet of WiFi coverage across two floors but router is centrally located with line of sight for about half of the devices
• 50 down/10 up internet connection, though I rarely see any of that.

Requirements:

• Stable (as few resets to the router as possible)
• Speed is negotiable since most devices are WiFi 5 only
• Better management of traffic to use what speed I do have

Admittedly I’m a little lost as to what I can exactly do to make the problem any better. I plan on EVENTUALLY running wired backhaul for my network if I add the eero pro or the UDM and a nano (if necessary). I don’t mind spending $500-600 USD if that manages the problem, I just don’t want to buy something and have to replace it next year.

Any thoughts or suggestions would be greatly appreciated and I’ll provide whatever I can in the way of information.
Edit: I didn’t want to hijack someone else’s thread, so I created a new one

 

[coxhaus]

Cisco works with Apple to make sure their devices work well. You might want to take a look at a Cisco RV260P router and a Cisco WAP581 wireless AP. I have 2 Cisco WAP581 wireless APs and they work great with our Apple devices. We have 3 iPads, 2 iPhone one being a iPhone11, AppleTV 4K.

 

[L&LD]

Almost anything you buy today will be better than the AE from 2013.

The RT-AX88U with RMerlin firmware is a great combination, although pricey. If it is within your budget, this is the best you can do today and should do wonders for your network.

The RT-AC86U (also with RMerlin firmware) is also a good fit for your use case. You'll be able to use it in your current setup for as long as you need (or want) to.

HTH.

 

[coxhaus]

How well does ASUS work with Apple? Nobody seems to have Apple on this forum when I ask about Apple. Everybody says they don't have an iPhone when we talk about roaming and what not.

The guy is moving from an Apple router.

 

[L&LD]

I only have a single Apple product and no issues (older MBP) with my RT-AX88U and RT-AX58U (wired AiMesh node) routers. Many customers use many different Apple products with no issues either with Asus + RMerlin firmware. The routers range from the RT-AC66U, RT-AC56U, RT-AC66U_B1, RT-AC68U, RT-AC3100, RT-AC86U, RT-AX58U and the RT-AX88U.

I not only don't care to use Apple products when I have a choice, but I also don't care about roaming either (unless my customers do).

Consumer-level routers either work with the client devices (for roaming) or they don't. Either way, the 'experience' is what it is. Unless more cash is thrown to solve this issue.

Not a single customer of mine has considered switching routers because of poor roaming issues. (Possibly because I can usually get a single router to work well enough for them).

 

[Trip]

@seraphimcaduto - For 50/10 internet, you're definitely going to want a router with working SQM QoS to prevent bufferbloat, which is more likely the main source of your internet issues, less so the airport extreme all of the sudden succumbing to poor performance (unless you're overloading its numeric wifi client capacity).

Also, for two floors and 2,000 square feet, I would make your wifi centralized and scalable (as you've been thinking) in case you need to add another AP upstairs. And of course, hard-wire as many endpoints and APs as possible via ethernet, or MoCa as an alternative, if you can.

Of all products considered, only Ubiquiti gateways (both EdgeMax and UniFi) and Eero have truly working SQM. Eero Pro would be the "easy button" approach. UniFi (or EdgeMax + discrete APs) would be more technical but way more feature-rich and provide more fronthaul capacity if you ever scale to two or more APs (provided you hard-wire the second AP).

 

[seraphimcaduto]

Yeah both of those options are well within my price range, I don’t mind going low grade commercial with the Cisco; been 20 years since I setup Cisco equipment but it was solid back in the day.

The RT-A88U was one of my options due to Merlin as well. I was also considering the eero pro or the unifi dream machine, but I don’t know much about them, outside of what I’ve read so far.

I was hoping to keep the project under $600; if I go over, I just have to talk really fast to my wife, lol.

 

[L&LD]

With either an RT-AC86U or an RT-AX88U + RMerlin + FreshJR QOS script I feel that your issues will be behind you.

Unless you really want to fast-talk your wife.

https://www.snbforums.com/threads/r...ements-custom-rules-and-inner-workings.36836/

 

[seraphimcaduto]

@seraphimcaduto - For 50/10 internet, you're definitely going to want a router with working SQM QoS to prevent bufferbloat, which is more likely the main source of your internet issues, less so the airport extreme all of the sudden succumbing to poor performance (unless you're overloading its numeric wifi client capacity).

Also, for two floors and 2,000 square feet, I would make your wifi centralized and scalable (as you've been thinking) in case you need to add another AP upstairs. And of course, hard-wire as many endpoints and APs as possible via ethernet, or MoCa as an alternative, if you can.

Of all products considered, only Ubiquiti gateways (both EdgeMax and UniFi) and Eero have truly working SQM. Eero Pro would be the "easy button" approach. UniFi (or EdgeMax + discrete APs) would be more technical but way more feature-rich and provide more fronthaul capacity if you ever scale to two or more APs (provided you hard-wire the second AP).

I know I’m not overloading the WiFi client capacity of the router, which is why I was considering routers with working SQM as well. The Unifi dream machine plus a nano was one possibility and the eero pro was as well (which is on sale this week oddly enough).

The plan was to hardwire any of my APs, just might take a little while to do it.

 

[seraphimcaduto]

How well does ASUS work with Apple? Nobody seems to have Apple on this forum when I ask about Apple. Everybody says they don't have an iPhone when we talk about roaming and what not.

The guy is moving from an Apple router.

My wife loves Apple products, so there is about a 50/50 split on devices. Most of the time it shouldn’t be an issue since Apple uses a mix of intel and Qualcomm modems, if memory serves me right.

 

[Trip]

Got it. Good overall plan. Do note, though, neither Eero nor UniFi are as over-amplified as a typical all-in-one, as they're meant to be deployed in higher number of APs at lower power each (to get cleaner dB signal closer to the clients), so there's a high chance you'll need that second upstairs AP wither either choice.

Regarding Apple devices, you shouldn't have a problem with proper roaming on either, presuming each product is setup properly. There's a fair amount of evidence on both the UI and Eero forums to suppor that assertion, plus, from what I understand, Apple have retooled their roaming behavior in last couple whole-number releases of iOS.

 

[coxhaus]

I know I’m not overloading the WiFi client capacity of the router, which is why I was considering routers with working SQM as well. The Unifi dream machine plus a nano was one possibility and the eero pro was as well (which is on sale this week oddly enough).

The plan was to hardwire any of my APs, just might take a little while to do it.

SQM is a big thing right now but in reality it is only useful when you saturate internet which happens at home very little. I ran SQM on pfsense for a year and I noticed very little difference. Besides if your internet is too slow now days you just buy faster internet. And nobody can saturate a gig internet. If you have a gig internet connection then SQM will not help you. If you have a old slow DSL connection then I vote SQM otherwise it is not too important in my way of thinking.

 

[seraphimcaduto]

Got it. Good overall plan. Do note, though, neither Eero nor UniFi are as over-amplified as a typical all-in-one, as they're meant to be deployed in higher number of APs at lower power each (to get cleaner dB signal closer to the clients), so there's a high chance you'll need that second upstairs AP wither either choice.

I figured that would be the case, so my deployment plan was something like this:

• Cisco and RT-AX88U: center of house deployment on first floor with LoS to most of the floor
• Eero pro and Unifi: deploy one unit center of house, one AP upstairs and the last unit (eero pro) next to the entertainment center with hardline back to center unit.

 

[seraphimcaduto]

SQM is a big thing right now but in reality it is only useful when you saturate internet which happens at home very little. I ran SQM on pfsense for a year and I noticed very little difference. Besides if your internet is too slow now days you just buy faster internet. And nobody can saturate a gig internet. If you have a gig internet connection then SQM will not help you. If you have a old slow DSL connection then I vote SQM otherwise it is not too important in my way of thinking.

I wish faster internet was an option but until we move, Buckeye cable and AT&T will only provide 50/10 plans. The local cable place (buckeye) claims they can provide faster, but I’ve had it before and never saw it close to 50/10.

 

[coxhaus]

At least you are not 18 meg DSL.

 

[seraphimcaduto]

At least you are not 18 meg DSL.

Fair enough, lol. It’s pretty sad when Spectrum internet is the fastest and most reliable internet in the area (if you can get it), followed by AT&T Uverse. The local provider offers faster tiers, up to 1GB, but no one ever sees anywhere close to those speeds.

 

[coxhaus]

Just remember SQM has a very small window where it will save you but if you go over that things time out.

 

[Trip]

SQM is a big thing right now but in reality it is only useful when you saturate internet which happens at home very little. I ran SQM on pfsense for a year and I noticed very little difference. Besides if your internet is too slow now days you just buy faster internet. And nobody can saturate a gig internet. If you have a gig internet connection then SQM will not help you. If you have a old slow DSL connection then I vote SQM otherwise it is not too important in my way of thinking.

SQM is best applied on interfaces sitting between highly-differing link speeds (ie. your typical gigabit home LAN and highly-assymetrical WAN (aka most residential internet) with low aggregate throughput (usually <500Mb) and especially low upload speed (<50Mb), which can and often will be saturated by busy-enough households. Just ask all the people who are trying to do VoIP or Zoom from work-at-home scenarios right now while they're kids are watching Netflix, downloading games or both. If we take Ookla's 2018 96Mb/32Mb national average numbers (24 Million unique user sample), even double it to 180/60 (being generous), that still fits the case where SQM would be tremendously helpful in, I would argue, a majority of households. It's simply a "big thing right now" because it's the best universal fix for network issues that most home users didn't know they needed. And no, you can't just always "buy more internet", LOL. Symetric gig for everyone may be a reality at some point, but it's a long way off.

I wish faster internet was an option but until we move, Buckeye cable and AT&T will only provide 50/10 plans. The local cable place (buckeye) claims they can provide faster, but I’ve had it before and never saw it close to 50/10.

Point proven.

Just remember SQM has a very small window where it will save you but if you go over that things time out.

Over what time window? Would you please explain how neither I, nor any of my 30+ customers with SQM running on low-speed cable (100/10) have ever managed to go over this "window" you speak of, at least not often enough to know about it?

 

[seraphimcaduto]

So just to sum up the possible solutions:

• If SQM is necessary due to mediocre ISP offerings, eero pro or Unifi (with possible extra APs
• If SQM and bufferbloat aren’t an issue, then the sky is the limit

 

[Trip]

In a nutshell, that's a pretty good two-point summation, yes.