Help me pick a router?

[ChemNerd]

So I had the Netgear WNDR-3700. I was happy with it but my mom needed a new router so I gave her my old one, seeing this as a time to upgrade, get something a little faster.

So here's what I'm looking for:
- Something with 802.11N
- at least 3 LAN ports, preferably 4.
- I'd prefer something dual-band as I have a few older devices that are 802.11B only (old internet radio and a TiVo wireless adapter) and my apartment complex is full of people on 2.4GHz - seems like I'd benefit from the 5GHz range.

Here's what I'll be doing
- Mostly one person, sometimes two users
- Streaming Netflix to an iPad or PS3/360 hooked up to a TV (although I think I'm going to put a switch in for my system as my place is now wired for internet)
- Moving files between wireless computers and a windows home server (wired in to the router).
- Streaming music through Sonos

I don't have a large place, just a bit over 1,000sq ft so range isn't crucial (it'd be nice, but not end of the world). Mainly looking to maximize speeds. Cost isn't a huge issue either - $100 router vs $200 router doesn't matter much.

I'd looked at the ASUS RT-N66U, ASUS RT-N56U, Netgear WNDR4500, Netgear WNDR4000, and Apple Airport Extreme. I'm weary of Linksys given poor experience with them post Cisco buyout but I'd be open to trying.

Where I'm at now is that I tried the 66U and just couldn't stand it - due to some conflict with Sonos the settings page doesn't load and it seemed to be causing my TiVo and Squeezebox problems in connecting to the system, as well as my phone. Could have been a bad unit, but the Sonos aspect is documented. So I think I'll have to pass on that.

Currently trying the WNDR4000 and it's going well, but I'm a little annoyed with some of the changes made - namely certain advanced settings missing like the ability to set channel width. Also don't feel like I'm getting as high of speeds as I was with the 66U on file access to/from the home server (66U was giving me close to 60Mbps, WNDR4000 is giving me mid 50's) so might be room for improvement. Essentially it's working well but I was hoping for a more notable change from my WNDR3700.

So I'm turning to you for suggestions. Again money isn't a huge concern - I just want something that's going to work and work well.

Thanks in advance!

 

[Mark Uhde]

For your needs, you just can't go wrong with the Apple Airport Extreme. A bit short on features, but it makes up for it with reliability. No offense to Linux (which most routers run on in some form and certainly can be very stable too), but I've found the NetBSD routers (Airport Extreme, newer CradlePoint) to be extremely stable.

 

[smlunatick]

Not sure about the reliability but Netgear is shipping their next generation 802.11ac (1750 Mbps) router (R6300.)

I just went with the Asus RT-N66U N900 router.

 

[Mark Uhde]

Not sure about the reliability but Netgear is shipping their next generation 802.11ac (1750 Mbps) router (R6300.)

The guy has fairly basic needs and wants reliability first, I hardly think experimental 802.11ac is the way to go

I know it's not popular to say on here, but if you don't care about the cost, the Airport Extreme is basically made for users like you - and they're stable as can be.

P.S. I didn't originally notice your complaint about the channel width. Don't worry, NO new Wi-Fi Certified router will let you force 40MHz on the 2.4GHz band. The Airport Extreme won't even let you use auto mode. To be honest, that's good. 40MHz should be reserved for the 5GHz band. I frankly don't like the fact the Wi-Fi alliance allows ANY form of 40MHz in the 2.4GHz band.

 

[ChemNerd]

The guy has fairly basic needs and wants reliability first, I hardly think experimental 802.11ac is the way to go

I know it's not popular to say on here, but if you don't care about the cost, the Airport Extreme is basically made for users like you - and they're stable as can be.

P.S. I didn't originally notice your complaint about the channel width. Don't worry, NO new Wi-Fi Certified router will let you force 40MHz on the 2.4GHz band. The Airport Extreme won't even let you use auto mode. To be honest, that's good. 40MHz should be reserved for the 5GHz band. I frankly don't like the fact the Wi-Fi alliance allows ANY form of 40MHz in the 2.4GHz band.

My main needs are speed (namely in file transfers - I do photography as a hobby, transferring 16GB of images every week or so to the home server - moving around lots of music/video too) and reliability. I do like customization as well, at least of things I know I should have control over (channel width being one).

I've found using the WNDR4000 to be a terrible experience, I don't know what's wrong but range is abysmal and unless I'm like right next to it I can't hit anything above 40Mbps (I can hit 62Mbps if I'm next to it and could do just over 50Mbps on average with the ASUS RT-N66U). While it's working better with my older 2.4Ghz b/g only stuff the performance is notably bad. It's notably worse than the WNDR3700 I'm replacing.

And for channel width, I didn't want 40MHz on 2.4 - I wanted to force it to 20Mhz, and try the same for 5Ghz but it's not an option anywhere - it doesn't even list it on the WNDR4000 so it makes me suspect as to what it's doing (20, 40, auto, bonding?).

So the ASUS RT-N66U is out because of whatever issue they have with Sonos as well as it not cooperating with some of my older WEP only clients (TiVo, internet radio, and a clock). Performance was good but it didn't feel reliable and I don't know how long ASUS will take to fix it. WNDR4000 seems to be doing really poorly, like bordering on unusable on the 2.4GHz band.

I've actually debated the R6300, I wouldn't use the 802.11ac, but I'd hope the rest would be more solid for it. If not that it's trying the ASUS RT-N56U (I don't see any Sonos complaints with that) or the Apple Airport Extreme - I just wish either of them performed more highly in 5GHz speeds - will make a big difference in file transfers - if they did I'd buy it in a heartbeat.

To be fair, I don't mind fiddling with things (I've built a fair share of computers, etcetc) - but the issues with the 66U weren't acceptable - I don't want to have to unplug the Sonos system any time I want to access the router settings/config all the while having it refusing to connect to several of my devices for unknown reasons. The WNDR4000, while stable is just a piece of trash performance wise. So some mix of reliability and performance would be nice.

I'll try one of the other three unless I get a suggest and report back. The 66U was already returned and this WNDR4000 is on it's way back next week. Thanks for your input.

 

[thiggins]

5 GHz is going to give you reduced range with any router. And using wireless for large transfers is going to be much slower than using Gigabit Ethernet and, in many cases, slower than 100 Mbps Ethernet. How far away and what obstructions are between your client and router?

Unless your clients are three-stream capable you are paying more than you need to by getting an "N900" router. "N600"s (dual-band two stream N) are fine for your needs.

You should be using WPA2/AES security for best throughput. Don't mess with WMM or any other settings like forcing mode. 40 MHz mode is fine to use with 5 GHz, but you may want to try 20, too.

Why not just go back to a WNDR3700?

 

[ChemNerd]

5 GHz is going to give you reduced range with any router. And using wireless for large transfers is going to be much slower than using Gigabit Ethernet and, in many cases, slower than 100 Mbps Ethernet. How far away and what obstructions are between your client and router?

Unless your clients are three-stream capable you are paying more than you need to by getting an "N900" router. "N600"s (dual-band two stream N) are fine for your needs.

You should be using WPA2/AES security for best throughput. Don't mess with WMM or any other settings like forcing mode. 40 MHz mode is fine to use with 5 GHz, but you may want to try 20, too.

Why not just go back to a WNDR3700?

I know to expect reduced range with 5GHz but this WNDR4000 is giving me lower range than either of the previous two routers (unless I'm right next to it I can't get above 80% strength). The router is in the middle of the apartment pretty much, in a closet, so primarily there's under 50 feet (I'd guess 25 feet most of the time) and a wall in between.

My laptop is three-stream capable, but that's it - the rest are two stream.

I use WPA2/AES for the 5GHz band but I can't use it for the 2.4GHz band as I have a couple of old devices that don't support anything more than WEP - but they and the PS3 are the only things on that band so it's not huge. I could make the effort to fix this if it were a huge issue though.

And I'm not opposed to getting another WNDR3700 (I gave my old one to my mom to replace her old Linksys WRT-54G), but I was looking at this as an opportunity to upgrade the performance of my network, namely three stream support for my laptop. But at this rate I may just do that.

I know it's better to wire things and I'm going to roll a switch/hub into the network for the home theater stuff, but I still like being able to transfer stuff wirelessly and I do streaming from my home server to my laptop and iPad (again lots of photos and videos).

 

[Mark Uhde]

I know to expect reduced range with 5GHz but this WNDR4000 is giving me lower range than either of the previous two routers (unless I'm right next to it I can't get above 80% strength). The router is in the middle of the apartment pretty much, in a closet, so primarily there's under 50 feet (I'd guess 25 feet most of the time) and a wall in between.

My laptop is three-stream capable, but that's it - the rest are two stream.

I use WPA2/AES for the 5GHz band but I can't use it for the 2.4GHz band as I have a couple of old devices that don't support anything more than WEP - but they and the PS3 are the only things on that band so it's not huge. I could make the effort to fix this if it were a huge issue though.

And I'm not opposed to getting another WNDR3700 (I gave my old one to my mom to replace her old Linksys WRT-54G), but I was looking at this as an opportunity to upgrade the performance of my network, namely three stream support for my laptop. But at this rate I may just do that.

I know it's better to wire things and I'm going to roll a switch/hub into the network for the home theater stuff, but I still like being able to transfer stuff wirelessly and I do streaming from my home server to my laptop and iPad (again lots of photos and videos).

If your laptop has three stream support, you really can't go wrong with the Airport Express for stability. But it's not customizable like you want really...

 

[thiggins]

The WNDR4000 could be broken. Have you tried to RMA it?

If you are using WEP or WPA/TKIP in either band, maximum link rate will be 54 Mbps. 11n's higher link rates are disabled.

Even when you get properly running at three stream N rates, real throughput under best case conditions for a single connection will be at or a bit above 100 Mbps rates. Check the Charts.

 

[ChemNerd]

The WNDR4000 could be broken. Have you tried to RMA it?

If you are using WEP or WPA/TKIP in either band, maximum link rate will be 54 Mbps. 11n's higher link rates are disabled.

Even when you get properly running at three stream N rates, real throughput under best case conditions for a single connection will be at or a bit above 100 Mbps rates. Check the Charts.

Yeah, I did an exchange the other day. Still giving me an issue with performance and range (if I move to my kitchen, maybe 40 feet away, it drops down to about 20Mbps). The thing is very reliable though. I get no connection issues, just notably poor performance.

My intention is this: 2.4GHz for b/g only devices using WEP (again for the small amount of devices I have) and 5GHz in N only using WPA2/AES. Everything I have that's N-capable can see the 5GHz band and the devices I have that aren't N seem to only be able to get on the 2.4GHz band (I checked by leaving both 2.4 and 5 as b/g/n - possible I missed something but that seems to be the case).

Should leaving the 2.4GHz in WEP have an effect on the 5GHz band? Because I cannot seem to get much over 60Mbps regardless of what I do - mind you that's fine, the WNDR3700 would only give me 40 or so, but if there's room for improvement I'm always open. Even the 2.4GHz band has the PS3 struggling to stream netflix movies now (again going to wire this with a switch I think) when it didn't with the WNDR3700 with the same settings.

Also willing to accept my 3-stream capable laptop might not be working right (It's a Lenovo, using the Intel 5300 wireless card - says it's 3 stream capable but who knows). But would like better performance than my 3700 was giving me with ~30Mbps. I can also do without 3-stream if need be - I'd rather have other things work better than just once device and I'm not sure my next laptop will or won't have 3-streams.

Mark - I'll check the Apple Airport Extreme out next or after that (I'm interested but the cost for performance is a bit of a turn off). Do you know if there's any issues using it not owning a Mac? I have an iPad and Apple TV, but the rest of my stuff is Windows.

 

[thiggins]

Security settings on one radio should not affect the other.

One more thought: Have you tried shutting down (off, not just idle) all of your wireless devices and then try one at a time? Could be there is one device that is particularly chatty or has some funky wireless setting that is holding back throughput. Make sure the router is set for WPA2/AES only. If you allow mixed mode, a TKIP device will run at 11g rates and slow your faster devices down.

Make sure you haven't disabled WMM or messed with its settings. WMM must be enabled to get 11n's higher link rates.

 

[ChemNerd]

Security settings on one radio should not affect the other.

One more thought: Have you tried shutting down (off, not just idle) all of your wireless devices and then try one at a time? Could be there is one device that is particularly chatty or has some funky wireless setting that is holding back throughput. Make sure the router is set for WPA2/AES only. If you allow mixed mode, a TKIP device will run at 11g rates and slow your faster devices down.

Make sure you haven't disabled WMM or messed with its settings. WMM must be enabled to get 11n's higher link rates.

I checked, it's WPA2/AES only, WMM is enabled. And I did go through and shut things down - results are still similar (I did notice it do a little better on average, but that could just be that it wasn't as bad in other rooms).

So I don't really know what's wrong truth be told. 2.4GHz performance is bad, my AppleTV is lagging terribly doing mirroring, and the up/down speeds seem to be doing well but then you move an inch and it drops 10Mbps or more.

I'm not particularly attached to this router obviously, so mainly looking for other ideas. I really liked the 66U but the Sonos issue isn't really workable (although I've debated getting another and putting a 3rd party firmware on there) and I don't know if that issue will be solved.

-56U doesn't appear to have that problem but I'm concerned about loss of speed by not having the 3 stream support.
-Apple Airport Extreme looks decent on paper but I'm iffy over the lack of control and the good but not great speeds.

What would you suggest, one of the above or try the 66U again or something else?

 

[thiggins]

I know you said you have soured on Cisco. But try one of the E or EA series. Buy direct from the Cisco store (or Amazon) and get 30 day return and free shipping (from Cisco).

 

[ChemNerd]

I know you said you have soured on Cisco. But try one of the E or EA series. Buy direct from the Cisco store (or Amazon) and get 30 day return and free shipping (from Cisco).

So a brief update. I tried an EA4500 but could not for the life of me get it to work with my internet so I swapped it out. In the mean time I also tried out the ASUS RT-N56U only to find it suffers the same issues with Sonos - so that's a no go.

Got the replacement EA4500 and the same issue. Had to set it up in bridge mode and update the firmware to get it to finally accept an IP address from my modem.

So far I'm liking the performance. Although the up speeds are a bit lower than what I was getting with others (down is better though). But I have to say the weird firmware issue and push to use the Cisco Connect software reminds me why I don't like Cisco/Linksys. If it remains stable and doesn't give me issues I may keep it.

Any suggestions to improve the upload speeds? it's about 5-10Mbps lower than what I was getting from the WNDR4000, 66U, and 56U (can't seem to get it about low 30's). Or did I mess up in not getting the E4200v2?

 

[thiggins]

Not much you can do about upload speeds besides changing wireless adapters.

The EA4500 and E4200v2 have the same hardware inside.

 

[sfx2000]

For your needs, you just can't go wrong with the Apple Airport Extreme. A bit short on features, but it makes up for it with reliability. No offense to Linux (which most routers run on in some form and certainly can be very stable too), but I've found the NetBSD routers (Airport Extreme, newer CradlePoint) to be extremely stable.

Agreed... Apple is not as feature rich, but stable - Cradlepoint tends to have a bit more features, but again, they do focus on stability... good stuff.

I'm also a bit partial to Buffalo, even though they're not NetBSD based...

 

[sfx2000]

If your laptop has three stream support, you really can't go wrong with the Airport Express for stability. But it's not customizable like you want really...

Airport Express is two stream... dual band capable, but only one band at a time... it's a single radio device - good at what it does though...

Current AP Extreme's and Time Capsules are three stream on both bands...

 

[ChemNerd]

I'm starting to have issues with the replacement EA4500 - it keeps having really bad ping times with my modem, even dropping packets. I'll do a ping through cmd window and it'll do <timed out, 17ms, 192ms, 15ms>. I reboot everything and it works fine for an hour, then this starts happening again and again. If I go back to the WNDR4000 (I still haven't returned it yet since it's the most stable) things are fine. I'll try contacting my ISP to make sure it's not on their end - but maybe I'm missing a setting? It was extremely difficult to get it working in the first place so maybe I missed something in the settings. Very pleased with it outside of this aspect and less than ideal range.

I've also tried the AirPort Extreme and found it to be... not so good. While it seems more stable the inability to set different security settings for the two networks is nearly a deal breaker. It also seems to have sporadically lower down speeds on the 5G band - Up is reasonable but down is usually 15-20Mbps lower than what I was getting on any of the other routers. Given its cost, inability to use multiple security (as far as I can tell), and performance this just is not a winner at all. If there's a way to fix any of this I'm open.

Agreed... Apple is not as feature rich, but stable - Cradlepoint tends to have a bit more features, but again, they do focus on stability... good stuff.

I'm also a bit partial to Buffalo, even though they're not NetBSD based...

I'll check out the Cradlepoint stuff, any suggestion on model? MBR900? Also for the Buffalo - any suggestion on those? (N900, N600?)

As an aside, thanks so much to everyone who's replied and offered input or even just looked at this. I don't understand why I seem to be having so much trouble.

 

[Mark Uhde]

I meant the Airport Extreme and not the Express to the person who called me out on that, I think Apple's naming (Ex----- for both products) couldn't be more confusing, LOL.

IFF you're in a noise-free environment, 5 GHz band performance will be slower on any product (lower signal levels). 5 GHz gets you out of a crowded noisy band, that said I'm surprised the Airport Extreme has proved worse than other products. And yup, I told you that they're not very customisable. That part stinks, still everyone I've sold one to is happy, they stay stable like nothing else. I credit NetBSD for that, which CradlePoint also runs.

CradlePoint are intended as stable enterprise-grade products with 3G fallback. You seem to be desperate for every last megabit of performance. Some of these products aren't tuned for maximum performance but rather to stay stable. I never would've expected the Airport Extreme to be the best performing. It's like overclocking - do you want it to work consistently and stay up and do what you need, or do you want the best benchmark numbers? (I will note that I RARELY recommend the Airport Extreme, but short of full firewall solutions like pfSense, the AE is my go-to product for clients who have stability problems, and it's never failed to fix them).

Are you willing to consider running Gigabit Ethernet for some of your devices? I really think you'll be happier from your posts. Then combine that with wireless for laptop, phone, tablet, etc.

 

[ChemNerd]

I meant the Airport Extreme and not the Express to the person who called me out on that, I think Apple's naming (Ex----- for both products) couldn't be more confusing, LOL.

IFF you're in a noise-free environment, 5 GHz band performance will be slower on any product (lower signal levels). 5 GHz gets you out of a crowded noisy band, that said I'm surprised the Airport Extreme has proved worse than other products. And yup, I told you that they're not very customisable. That part stinks, still everyone I've sold one to is happy, they stay stable like nothing else. I credit NetBSD for that, which CradlePoint also runs.

CradlePoint are intended as stable enterprise-grade products with 3G fallback. You seem to be desperate for every last megabit of performance. Some of these products aren't tuned for maximum performance but rather to stay stable. I never would've expected the Airport Extreme to be the best performing. It's like overclocking - do you want it to work consistently and stay up and do what you need, or do you want the best benchmark numbers? (I will note that I RARELY recommend the Airport Extreme, but short of full firewall solutions like pfSense, the AE is my go-to product for clients who have stability problems, and it's never failed to fix them).

Are you willing to consider running Gigabit Ethernet for some of your devices? I really think you'll be happier from your posts. Then combine that with wireless for laptop, phone, tablet, etc.

I live in an apartment complex - I can see at least 18 other access points, all of them on 2.4Ghz. So not exactly noise-free. When I test on the 2.4Ghz band I get in the 25-28mbps range.

With the AirPort - I could tolerate the lack of performance if the different security levels wasn't an issue and it had 4 LAN ports (I don't understand why it has 3). Don't like that it's one of the more expensive but has the lowest performance though.

And I appreciate the analogy about overclocking- it's why despite the best performance the 66U isn't an option, it's terribly buggy for my use case. I don't think I need to get the very best numbers, but I don't see an issue trying to optimize. When one product posts speeds up to 25% less, I think it's a point to consider.

Most of my equipment is wired actually. I don't know that this will be something I can continue doing though as I can't guarantee my next apartment will have it (I have to move at the end of this year).

For reference my current network map is like this. Inside the closet modem => router => Windows Home Server, Sonos Bridge, Junction box to living room (apartment has Ethernet wiring, junction is in the closet). In the living room it goes wall => 8-port D-Link switch => 360, HTPC, TiVo, PS3, Apple TV, Slingbox. Wireless devices are: Lenovo Laptop, HP Laptop, Sonos Play 5, Sonos play 3, iPad, Galaxy Nexus, Scale, TiVo (in another room), old roku soundbridge. The last two are what need WEP - I can fix the TiVo for $50 or so and I could let the Soundbridge go as it's rarely used - just get another Sonos I guess. I'd just rather not HAVE to do this.

All the routers I've tested (with the exception of one of the ASUS) work fine for Ethernet. But the wireless stuff is the difference (obviously). Since my personal laptop is my main computer and the only one I'm noticing a difference on I'm trying to optimize that path. By which I mean good (30+ write, 40+ read ideally) LAN speeds, reliable internet use, and decent range.

- ASUS routers don't work due to Sonos issues. Not an option.
- The AirPort Extreme seems iffy due to inability to set different security for networks, high cost, lower performance, and only 3 LAN ports (it means I need another switch/hub for when I wire my computer up in my office). I can work around the security if I must but it means additional money spent
- The Cisco EA4500 seems to not like my modem/Comcast and drops maybe 10% of packets as well as higher ping scores which translates in to web browsing being annoyingly slow. Willing to investigate setting changes or something to fix this but nothing I've tried seems to fix its WAN performance.
- The WNDR4000 seems to have range issues (especially on 5GHz), but is overall the better of the lot I've tested. If I could control more of it - namely 20/40MHz and the range were better I'd have no issue with it. But it's bad enough that some of my devices (phone and iPad in particular) can't see the 5GHz band at all sometimes and the performance drops like a rock in certain sections of my apartment (e.g. kitchen).

I'm open to options. The best paths I can see currently are to 1) Fix the WAN issues with the EA4500, 2) Deal with the limitations/performance of the AirPort and spend money to fix the short comings, 3) Deal with the range issues on the WNDR4000, 4) Try the WNDR4500, 5) Go back to the WNDR3700 and just deal with lower performance but otherwise everything else is solid.

I don't see 1 a viable. 2 is possible, 3 isn't ideal and I doubt 4 would be much better. And 5 would be hard to do after seeing the performance bump I've gotten with these, especially at how fast thumbnails load for video and images.