MoCA or Powerline? (newb)

[Porschefan]

Very happy to have come across this site. I've been trying to get my wits wrapped around this topic at sites like AVS Forums, with limited success.

I want to expand my home theater/AV centers (living and bedroom) to include an HTPC. Replacing two Comcast DVR's and their monthly fees in the process.

I currently have a Powerline connection to the living room and wireless to the bedroom and can stream and record simultaneously at both locations--Comcast DVR, Netflix, Roku as sources. I want to add a Silicon Dust HD Homerun Prime 3-tuner box, with a cablecard, to the network and have the HTPC use Windows Media Center (to start anyway) to watch and record TV.

Everyone says wireless won't hack it and Powerline will be iffy. I've been holding out to see if 1-Gb Homeplug adapters are going to available, but nothing yet.

MoCA seems like a good solution as I have at least 4 live coax drops in the house including at the desired locations. I've never tried MoCA so I'm a little nervous about it.

I've considered just getting Tivo, but all things considered I'd rather tinker with the HTPC solution.

I'm starting to read as much as I can here, but thought I would post my general situation and see if anyone chimes in with suggestions.

TIA.

STP

 

[thiggins]

Welcome to the SNB forums.

First, what is the make/model of the HomePlug adapters you have?

The short story is MoCA can provide higher and more stable throughput than powerline, but it is not as consumer friendly. Consumer networking companies briefly supported it. But at this point, most have exited the business except for Actiontec. It's pretty much considered a technology for service providers, multi-unit dwellings, hospitality, etc.

That said, if you have nothing else on your coax, have access to all splitter locations so that you can check/ upgrade them to 2 GHz models and don't mind potentially buying your adapters from eBay, then go for it.

These two documents may be helpful in understanding what is involved:
MoCA Troubleshooting Experiences, Recommendations for Efficient Installations (Arris)
MoCA Installation and Troubleshooting Reference Guide (Cisco)

The first is more consumer oriented. The second, more installer.

Good luck and let us know how you do.
http://www.cisco.com/c/dam/en/us/td/docs/video/at_home/Cable_Accessories/4031235_B.pdf

 

[abailey]

I use MOCA in my house and have had great success with it. Like you I got tired of paying cable and satelite companies so I did away with that, built a HTPC for over the air HDTV and stream Netflix. Since I did not use the coax in my house anymore it was perfect to use for ethernet. I purchased 3 MOCA adapter like these: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B008EQ4BQG/?tag=snbforums-20 . I have not had to reboot them or fool with them at all in 2 years. They just work. They cost a bit more than powerline adapters but they are rock solid. Anyway you can take a look here at my setup if you care to. http://community.ubnt.com/t5/EdgeMA...-home-network-with-Ubiquiti-gear/cns-p/760484

 

[Porschefan]

Hi Tim,

Thanks for the welcome and the response. I'm going to dig into those two docs ASAP.

Welcome to the SNB forums.

First, what is the make/model of the HomePlug adapters you have?

They are a couple/three years old and are ZyXEL PLA401v4 HomePlug AV 200 Mbps units. I've never really tested what kind of throughput they are doing. I just have one at my router and the second in the living room--about 20-30 feet away where I have a switch and a BD player, Roku 3 and a Logitech Touch plugged in. I guess I could take a laptop over there and plug it in and run the Speedtest and see what they're doing? I'm leaning toward biting the MoCA bullet, but if I went with Powerline I'd want to upgrade these to at least the current AV2 "500 Mpbs" models to give it a fighting chance.

That said, if you have nothing else on your coax, have access to all splitter locations so that you can check/ upgrade them to 2 GHz models and don't mind potentially buying your adapters from eBay, then go for it.

I have cable TV AND 25 Mbps internet coming in on the cable. Does this count? The reason I have cable is that Comcast's price for internet + TV is pretty close to the same as internet alone (can you say "bundling"?!). I'd like to experiment with OTA also, but since Comcast is my ONLY source of broadband, there's no financial incentive to do so yet.

As far as access to all splitters-I don't know, but will check. There is a Comcast box outside attached to the garage with several coax cables heading into the house through the wall. I can check there and see if there is anything there. Other than that, there are just wall plates with coax connectors at the four locations. I will investigate this further.

Good luck and let us know how you do.

Thanks--you'll be hearing plenty from me ;-).

 

[Porschefan]

I use MOCA in my house and have had great success with it. Like you I got tired of paying cable and satelite companies so I did away with that, built a HTPC for over the air HDTV and stream Netflix. Since I did not use the coax in my house anymore it was perfect to use for ethernet. I purchased 3 MOCA adapter like these: http://www.amazon.com/dp/B008EQ4BQG/?tag=snbforums-20 . I have not had to reboot them or fool with them at all in 2 years. They just work. They cost a bit more than powerline adapters but they are rock solid. Anyway you can take a look here at my setup if you care to. http://community.ubnt.com/t5/EdgeMA...-home-network-with-Ubiquiti-gear/cns-p/760484

Abailey--thanks for the input. That diagram you have is very helpful too. I do have a question: I don't see a MoCA adapter at your cable modem, which looks very much like a Motorola SB6782AC. I've just recently run across this and it is a combo modem, 4-port Gb switch, and wireless AC access point/router. It also says it is "MoCA" enabled. Does this mean that this unit doesn't need a MoCA adapter. I currently have an older Surfboard DOCSIS 3.0 modem and from what I understand this would require one of the MoCA adapters installed before the coax goes into the modem and an ethernet cable to the router.

I was kind of planning to upgrade my current wireless router (a Cisco/Linksys N model) to a Gb model and upgrade my switches to Gb also. If the SB6782 is a good choice, I'd have the Gb router, possibly better (??) wireless AND MoCA built in--saving one MoCA adapter. Am I thinking correctly here? Or would just keeping my current modem and upgrading be wiser?

One nagging little thing that makes me nervous about changing the modem is that I'm dealing with Comcast and I actually worry about getting a new/different modem provisioned!! I did OK on the current one, but yesterday I did a test call to Comcast to see if I could actually reach someone who could help and I spent 45 minutes talking to people who had no idea of what "provisioning a cable modem" meant--seriously. I have several horror stories like having a tech come onto our property and disconnecting service without even knocking on the door because he had a work order to disconnect the previous owner. That took 5-6 days to straighten out. Arghhhh. If anyone has any secret tricks for getting through to these guys....please let me know!

Back to reading Tim's references and your own writeup.

Best,
STP

P.S. What is an ERL? Edit : Edge Lite Router? Probably overkill for my project?

 

[stevech]

I've used MoCA to get to a place where cat5 is impossible. Much superior to home plug IP over power wiring.

I don't get the discussion about cable modems... the MoCA adapter connects to the LAN. The modem connects to the router's WAN port.

I recommend against getting all in one things like cable modem + WiFi. I prefer to lease my cable modem to avoid finger-pointing and the ISP is getting nasty now about billing for truck rolls, and having a customer-owned cable modem gives them the excuse they want. I choose and change my WiFi as I see fit; the cable modem is just that. This includes the one I've had for 2 years now, cable modem + digital phone from the ISP (evil Time Warner Cable; less evil than AT&T). No question: it's their responsibility, not mine.

 

[abailey]

My cable modem is a Motorola SB6141. It is a modem only without built in MOCA or router. I also use Comcast. What happened was I switched from DSL to cable. I looked at the rental fee for a modem and decided I could buy my own modem and make up the difference in 11 months. Anyway as part of the deal they would install one room with cable. So I ended up having them pull cable into my upstairs office (even though I already had cable in there) so that the cable to the modem came straight from the box on my house. Then I could use the existing cable to bring down my over-the-air signals from my antenna in the attic. Then I used other coax in the house to run MOCA. Anyway I would also agree with stevech on not getting all in one devices. Especially your modem and router. I went even further and separated my modem, router, and access points.

 

[Porschefan]

I've used MoCA to get to a place where cat5 is impossible. Much superior to home plug IP over power wiring.

I don't get the discussion about cable modems... the MoCA adapter connects to the LAN. The modem connects to the router's WAN port.

My question (or confusion) about MoCA and this particular all-in-one has to do with one of its features being listed as "MoCA networking for smart devices." To me this means that if this modem were plugged into a router then you could just hook up a MoCA-ready device--like a Tivo Roamio--directly to any live coaxial cable in the house--WITHOUT attaching a MoCA adapter at the cable modem and running THAT to the router. I understand that if I want actual RJ-45 ethernet at the cables in my house I would still need a MoCA adapter. But with my present cable modem I need a MoCA adapter between the coax and the modem itself. At least that's how I understand it currently. So this all-in-one would save me one MoCA adapter. Hope that makes sense. The features and specs of this modem are HERE.

I recommend against getting all in one things like cable modem + WiFi. I prefer to lease my cable modem to avoid finger-pointing and the ISP is getting nasty now about billing for truck rolls, and having a customer-owned cable modem gives them the excuse they want. I choose and change my WiFi as I see fit; the cable modem is just that. This includes the one I've had for 2 years now, cable modem + digital phone from the ISP (evil Time Warner Cable; less evil than AT&T). No question: it's their responsibility, not mine.

I see your point and tend to agree. I currently own my own modem anyway though, so I'm unlikely to change that unless Comcast were to offer something superior--ha, ha. I've actually run across a thread where someone was complaining that Comcast had "upgraded" them recently to an old DOCSIS 2.0 modem, so I don't know.

 

[Porschefan]

My cable modem is a Motorola SB6141. It is a modem only without built in MOCA or router.

I have an SB6120, which is DOCIS 3.0 also, but I'm assuming an earlier model. I got it in June 2010. See my post above about what I *think* "built-in MoCA" means.

I also use Comcast. What happened was I switched from DSL to cable. I looked at the rental fee for a modem and decided I could buy my own modem and make up the difference in 11 months.

Ditto. Although I think Stevech has a good point about avoiding finger-pointing by using Comcast's device. Fortunately, it hasn't been a problem so far.

Anyway as part of the deal they would install one room with cable. So I ended up having them pull cable into my upstairs office (even though I already had cable in there) so that the cable to the modem came straight from the box on my house. Then I could use the existing cable to bring down my over-the-air signals from my antenna in the attic. Then I used other coax in the house to run MOCA. Anyway I would also agree with stevech on not getting all in one devices. Especially your modem and router. I went even further and separated my modem, router, and access points.

I think separating components makes most sense at this point. I checked my Comcast box at the garage and there is ONE cable going into it--from the street, I assume, and there are 5 cables coming out and going directly into the garage wall. Where they go from there I can't tell--probably went in during construction and go through walls. There are 4 coax outlets that I can find--probably one more behind something somewhere.

Questions: are there any MoCA adapters that have gigabit ethernet ports? If not, does it make any sense to start looking for a gigabit router and switches as part of the upgrade? Reading in the router forum here it looks like there are some really nice ones around with great wireless performance and lots of configurability.

 

[stevech]

Questions: are there any MoCA adapters that have gigabit ethernet ports? If not, does it make any sense to start looking for a gigabit router and switches as part of the upgrade? Reading in the router forum here it looks like there are some really nice ones around with great wireless performance and lots of configurability.

MoCA hasn't evolved yet to gigabit ethernet speeds. Very hard to do.

Don't confuse raw bit rates on MoCA or on WiFi for ethernet speeds. The differences are very large due to overhead, duplexing, error correction, etc.
Ethernet is ye ole copper medium. Free of interference. No need for complex RF based signal methods as are needed for Wireless, MoCA and IP over power lines.

 

[fistv]

Very interesting, nothing like stumbling across new stuff I have not even heard of before, the MoCA stuff, it just never crossed my sight lines.

 

[CaptainSTX]

Questions: are there any MoCA adapters that have gigabit ethernet ports? If not, does it make any sense to start looking for a gigabit router and switches as part of the upgrade? Reading in the router forum here it looks like there are some really nice ones around with great wireless performance and lots of configurability.

If you were to repurpose the latest generation (MI424WR-GEN3I) Actiontec router issued by Fios to their customers as a MOCA adapter/switch/WiFI AP you would have a device with four built in Gigabyte LAN ports. This router can be picked up on e-Bay, Amazon or even purchased from Verizon for $99.

While as the case with any router some people swear that this router is the cause of all their networking problems I have used mine for nine months and my FIOS 75/35 connection has been rock solid and I have never had to reboot this device to resolve a networking issue.

MOCA works great using Actiontec equipment.

 

[azazel1024]

MoCA hasn't evolved yet to gigabit ethernet speeds. Very hard to do.

Don't confuse raw bit rates on MoCA or on WiFi for ethernet speeds. The differences are very large due to overhead, duplexing, error correction, etc.
Ethernet is ye ole copper medium. Free of interference. No need for complex RF based signal methods as are needed for Wireless, MoCA and IP over power lines.

Not true with MoCA. Its a fairly low noise environment (coax). IIRC MoCA 1/1.1 is supposedly 110Mbps, though it is generally limited by the fast ethernet port on the bridge.

In my limited experience, it can hit roughly fast ethernet speeds, around 85-90Mbps payload data rate. Running my actiontec router and my actiontec bridge for a quickie test out of perverse curiosity, I saw resonably stable 10.6-11.2MB/sec transfer speeds between machines over the bridge. That is pretty close to what I see over cat5e/6 with fast ethernet, about 11.4MB/sec if I send traffic through my 10/100 access point using the wired ports through the rest of my network (pretty much everything else is gigabit, other than my network printer, which has a 10/100 port).

MoCA 2.0 I think can/does/should hit something like 400Mbps and those products do have gigabit ports on them, so realistically they probably can hit 350-380Mbps payload speeds.

Downside is, it seems like only a couple of manufacturers made MoCA 2.0 products, and then for only a second.

My MoCA bridge (actiontec ECB2500) has been rock steady in the ~3-4 months I have had it. Prior to that my actiontec router used in bridge mode only needed all of 1 reboot in roughly 3 years of operation as a bridge. I only use MoCA at this point as a bridge for my FIOS DVR to get guide information (COME ON MOTOROLA/VERIZON, ENABLE THE DANGED ETHERNET PORT ON YOUR DVRS!).

Anyway, some powerline adapters in decent conditions can exceed the speed of MoCA, but since the speeds are all over the place...that is no guarantee. With MoCA, unless there is a problem somewhere in your wiring/splitters, you probably are going to hit 80-95Mbps pretty reliably. Powerline I've seen 500Mbps hit everywhere from "not working at all" to 5-10Mbps up to nearly 180Mbps. The usual speed I see is more in the 30-70Mbps range. The next generation gigabit powerline adapters are likely to be somewhat faster, but they are unlikely to "fix" a bad connection between ones.

Of course, you can also use multiple to get what you need. Have a fair amount of traffic? Split it across MoCA and powerline so you can use the bandwidth of both (both are shared mediums like wireless is...though you can setup MoCA so that it isn't, if you really want, but that generally involves having a splitter(s) near where you can put the other end of your bridge(s) and by your switch. Of course with MoCA, if you "split" your network to run multiple bridges as endpoints in to your ethernet LAN, they will be seperated from any cable TV access (which might not matter to you at all, especially if you are not running CaTV either to that location or at all).

 

[stevech]

My MoCA 1 can do no better than 70Mbps with tests not colored by disk speeds, file creation overhead, etc.
This is with TCP's overhead.
Net yield. Not marketing B.S.

I think that speed is realistic and about what's expected.

More than adequate for 1080i streaming.
1080p is rare, and too much for other than gigE on ethernet.

MoCA: if you can use it, doesn't change day to day.
HPNA/power line IP is like a long walk on a treacherous jungle path. Never ending changes in impairments that come and go.

 

[Porschefan]

Very interesting, nothing like stumbling across new stuff I have not even heard of before, the MoCA stuff, it just never crossed my sight lines.

I'm surprised it isn't better known also. The percentage of homes with built-in coax must far outstrip those with ethernet (although that will probably be changing over time).

I was at Best Buy earlier this week to look at the SB6782 and there was a Geek Squad "Home Theater Installation" truck in the parking lot. I thought I might get some tips from the techs and asked them if they knew anything about MoCA. They had never heard of it. Arghhh.

STP

 

[azazel1024]

Doesn't suprise me they never heard of it. General geek squad level of technical experience is "played with computers some" while school aged.

My gear is all MoCA 1.1, so maybe that has a bit to do with it? Dunno, anyway, pretty rock steady.

1080p should be fine over it unless it is uncompressed. That'll certainly handle at least one full 1080p BR stream and it'll handle a boat load of more compressed 720p/1080i/1080p h.264 streams.

Unless coax gets abandoned for some reason, the number of homes with coax versus the number with ethernet is probably always going to be higher with coax. I could have missed something, but it has been pretty standard install for well over 20 years now (coax) in at least one or two rooms in a house. Ethernet has only gotten vaguely popular for installs in maybe the last decade, and even then it is not a standard (for most builders), a best a commonly asked for option.

I know my parents house that was just built they had to ask for cat6 to be run to the various rooms, it was not included as standard. Coax was standard run to the master bedroom, kitchen, office and living room and they added in all of the bedrooms and the loft as additions.

My rancher built in '61 had coax added to almost every room years ago (I've removed most of it, in part because they did a HORRIBLE/UGLY job installing most of it, and just left or added locations where I'd be likely to actually have a DVR/TV). My TH built in '93 had coax in 5 rooms, that looked like it was installed by the builder and zero ethernet. My parent's last house built in '96 had zero ethernet (till my Dad and I ran some). My brother-in-laws apartment built in 2000 has zero ethernet, but a couple of coax drops. My brother's apartment has zero ethernet, 3 coax, built in 2007. My best friends house built in 2008 (not by them), has zero ethernet, ton of coax. Another friend with a house built around 2006 or so DOES have ethernet. All phone jacks are actually cat5 wiring behind the RJ11 and there are several actual RJ45 data jacks with 5e back to a wiring closet in his garage.

So I think ethernet is getting more popular to run, but it still isn't on the level of standard that coax is and probably will maintain.

 

[shrike4242]

Questions: are there any MoCA adapters that have gigabit ethernet ports? If not, does it make any sense to start looking for a gigabit router and switches as part of the upgrade? Reading in the router forum here it looks like there are some really nice ones around with great wireless performance and lots of configurability.

ActionTec does:
http://www.actiontec.com/257.html

I've been using one for a couple of months now and so far, it's not had any issues. $80 on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CZ6WC3A/?tag=snbforums-20

MoCA isn't likely to push anything beyond 100Mbps in rare cases, though it's one less possible bottleneck to remove from the situation. It works well as a MoCA bridge if nothing else because it has four GigE ports, so no switch is required for multiple devices talking to a MoCA adapter.

 

[fistv]

Doesn't suprise me they never heard of it. General geek squad level of technical experience is "played with computers some" while school aged.

My gear is all MoCA 1.1, so maybe that has a bit to do with it? Dunno, anyway, pretty rock steady.

1080p should be fine over it unless it is uncompressed. That'll certainly handle at least one full 1080p BR stream and it'll handle a boat load of more compressed 720p/1080i/1080p h.264 streams.

Unless coax gets abandoned for some reason, the number of homes with coax versus the number with ethernet is probably always going to be higher with coax. I could have missed something, but it has been pretty standard install for well over 20 years now (coax) in at least one or two rooms in a house. Ethernet has only gotten vaguely popular for installs in maybe the last decade, and even then it is not a standard (for most builders), a best a commonly asked for option.

I know my parents house that was just built they had to ask for cat6 to be run to the various rooms, it was not included as standard. Coax was standard run to the master bedroom, kitchen, office and living room and they added in all of the bedrooms and the loft as additions.

My rancher built in '61 had coax added to almost every room years ago (I've removed most of it, in part because they did a HORRIBLE/UGLY job installing most of it, and just left or added locations where I'd be likely to actually have a DVR/TV). My TH built in '93 had coax in 5 rooms, that looked like it was installed by the builder and zero ethernet. My parent's last house built in '96 had zero ethernet (till my Dad and I ran some). My brother-in-laws apartment built in 2000 has zero ethernet, but a couple of coax drops. My brother's apartment has zero ethernet, 3 coax, built in 2007. My best friends house built in 2008 (not by them), has zero ethernet, ton of coax. Another friend with a house built around 2006 or so DOES have ethernet. All phone jacks are actually cat5 wiring behind the RJ11 and there are several actual RJ45 data jacks with 5e back to a wiring closet in his garage.

So I think ethernet is getting more popular to run, but it still isn't on the level of standard that coax is and probably will maintain.

No surprise up till 93, the battle was still raging between thin net, token ring and that new fangled ethernet that of all things a copier company was pushing . as far as in homes, why, you had those lightning fast 9600 baud modems to AOL for your data needs along with that whopper first phone bill where you finally understood the $$$ relationship vs minutes of toll calls.

 

[azazel1024]

ActionTec does:
http://www.actiontec.com/257.html

I've been using one for a couple of months now and so far, it's not had any issues. $80 on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CZ6WC3A/?tag=snbforums-20

MoCA isn't likely to push anything beyond 100Mbps in rare cases, though it's one less possible bottleneck to remove from the situation. It works well as a MoCA bridge if nothing else because it has four GigE ports, so no switch is required for multiple devices talking to a MoCA adapter.

Those are Fast Ethernet only. Doing more reading, supposedly MoCA 1.1 has 170Mbps net yield...though I don't know that you'd ever see that. With my ECB2500 I can get around 90Mbps payload, probably close to 100Mbps net yield when you factor in overhead.

The only way the ECB3500 could get anything like 170Mbps net is if there were multiple sources hitting it, as each ethernet port is limited to 100Mbps max. Of course, that just might happen and nice to know that MoCA actually should be able to do closer to 170Mbps.

In theory. I wonder what it can really do in practice and how much of the 170Mbps is L2 overhead on coax (Wireless has around 40% L2 overhead for error correction and stuff. I'd assume powerline is pretty similar...plus that is a damned noisy environment. I'd think with Coax being quieter L2 overhead might be substantially less as there wouldn't need to be as much error correction, nor retransmits).

 

[sm00thpapa]

I'm using MOCA and Home Plug and getting the same performance from both. Both are better than wireless. Glad I made the switch.