tasmota devices failing to connect back - Asus WRT

[glens]

Just read through this thread.

Gotta say that yesterday I went to mow the lawn. I picked up one of the dog bones out of the grass and within minutes the clouds started rolling in, followed by rain, and I couldn't do the job. So today I didn't touch any bones and was thus able to mow the whole property with no rain!

So it HAD TO BE that picking up any dog bones caused the rain. My suggestion to any and all: if you want to be able to mow your grass in the dry DON'T PICK DOG BONES OUT OF THE YARD 'cause that makes it rain.

 

[drinkingbird]

Just read through this thread.

Gotta say that yesterday I went to mow the lawn. I picked up one of the dog bones out of the grass and within minutes the clouds started rolling in, followed by rain, and I couldn't do the job. So today I didn't touch any bones and was thus able to mow the whole property with no rain!

So it HAD TO BE that picking up any dog bones caused the rain. My suggestion to any and all: if you want to be able to mow your grass in the dry DON'T PICK DOG BONES OUT OF THE YARD 'cause that makes it rain.

 

[Mattias]

@SignedAdam: thanks. I already have part of the devices on dhcp with a fixed IP. however they seem to be just as problematic as the ones with no fixed IP.
@Mattias: thank you, so you say setting static on the Tasmota itself? Not sure if that will be smooth, I have seen networks where this is leading to issues. When doing that, this should be in a range outside the dhcp assigned range from the router, correct?
@dark: thank you for the hint, I will try this.

I will update in about a week when I have tested your suggestions
Thank you all for your suggestions!

Hnedrik-Jan

Exactly... you need to put a dhcp range and add those outside of that.

 

[sfx2000]

Honestly I have no idea what Tasmota is (other than what you've told me). No "shade" intended toward those donating their time, but if I had a device that required B or G to operate, it would be retired to the closet. Or if there was no option but to run it, maybe a dedicated AP, but even then it is mucking up the environment.

It sounds like the issue started with a certain release of SDK so one would think it could be fixed.... but who knows.

From what I've read up on - B is not required, but moving over to G from N on those devices can help...

Interesting to note that many over on that side blame the router vendors, and even there, I think Asus has likely thrown in the towel and just say disable a lot of stuff in 2.4...

[Wireless Router] How to improve compatibility of IoT device with ASUS WiFi 6(AX) Router? | Official Support | ASUS USA

And the community over in Tasmota-land have gone down similar rat-holes (hey, disable DHCP, etc).

ESP8266 is has more issues, but ESP32 can see problems as well...

 

[slrt]

I've seen my share of trouble with ESP devices on Asus routers, and the solution is fairly simple:

1. Smart Connect is a terrible idea, you really want to have separate SSIDs for each band. There is no reason whatsoever for your "normal" devices to ever use the slow 2.4GHz network, assuming your mesh is properly deployed. Moreover, IoT devices slow down the WiFi network significantly, because they are slow to respond to the router, so your phones and laptops really shouldn't be using the same band.
2. If separate SSIDs are used, and 2.4GHz is essentially dedicated for IoT, you can turn off AX on that band as well, since no device there uses it anyway, and it can only mess with these weak SoCs.

 

[drinkingbird]

I've seen my share of trouble with ESP devices on Asus routers, and the solution is fairly simple:

1. Smart Connect is a terrible idea, you really want to have separate SSIDs for each band. There is no reason whatsoever for your "normal" devices to ever use the slow 2.4GHz network, assuming your mesh is properly deployed. Moreover, IoT devices slow down the WiFi network significantly, because they are slow to respond to the router, so your phones and laptops really shouldn't be using the same band.
2. If separate SSIDs are used, and 2.4GHz is essentially dedicated for IoT, you can turn off AX on that band as well, since no device there uses it anyway, and it can only mess with these weak SoCs.

There are plenty of reasons for regular devices to need to switch to 2.4, some like to work from the back yard, etc. Has never been an issue for me. I don't use smart connect since my router doesn't have it but I use the same SSID for both bands with a reasonably set roaming assistant which functions pretty much the same. Works fine.

For those that want to be able to assign a band, I recommend having one SSID that is the same between bands (for devices that need to be able to get better distance) and then set up a guest network (with lan enabled or disabled depending what you want) with two different SSIDs. Gives you the flexibility to choose whether each device is locked to a band or can roam.

 

[sfx2000]

There are plenty of reasons for regular devices to need to switch to 2.4, some like to work from the back yard, etc.

Agreed - there are times where slow coverage is better than no coverage...

And as @drinkingbird mentions - there's always the option of creating an SSID for the IoT devices and checking off the appropriate options...

The ESP firmware is a bit of a pain, oddly enough, more for Broadcom than other chipsets (I have zero issues with ESP and QC-Atheros, both for free and closed source drivers).

 

[slrt]

If your back yard is the size of a football field, then I agree, 2.4GHz is the only option. Otherwise a router placed high and with proper visibility should still have coverage for 5GHz, since there are no walls to overcome. The real issue is in large places with many concrete walls, like underground parking lots, or building stairwells. I have very weak 5GHz reception outside my front door, but the line of sight from my routers includes either 2-3 20cm thick concrete walls, or a concrete wall and a steel door.

From my experience with Smart Connect, as well as other routers with a single SSID, devices are kicked to the 2.4GHz band way too early, and remain there for no good reason even when reception gets better.

In any case, if you really want to still use 2.4GHz for your devices, then add a separate legacy router for IoT. These routers do not really run separate physical networks for Guest Network, it's only logical. They all run on the same channel, using the same circuits, and with the same network config. That's why the only available toggles are for authentication and Intranet access (check your router's config). So it's not possible to disable 802.11ax just for the guest network, and the IoT devices will still slow down neighbouring devices.

 

[Crimliar]

Regards ESP-32 devices dropping on and off the network, have you looked at their signal strength? Especially if you have them stuffed into metal back-boxes their tiny antennas can really struggle to cope. At least that was my experience a couple of years back!

 

[drinkingbird]

If your back yard is the size of a football field, then I agree, 2.4GHz is the only option. Otherwise a router placed high and with proper visibility should still have coverage for 5GHz, since there are no walls to overcome. The real issue is in large places with many concrete walls, like underground parking lots, or building stairwells. I have very weak 5GHz reception outside my front door, but the line of sight from my routers includes either 2-3 20cm thick concrete walls, or a concrete wall and a steel door.

From my experience with Smart Connect, as well as other routers with a single SSID, devices are kicked to the 2.4GHz band way too early, and remain there for no good reason even when reception gets better.

In any case, if you really want to still use 2.4GHz for your devices, then add a separate legacy router for IoT. These routers do not really run separate physical networks for Guest Network, it's only logical. They all run on the same channel, using the same circuits, and with the same network config. That's why the only available toggles are for authentication and Intranet access (check your router's config). So it's not possible to disable 802.11ax just for the guest network, and the IoT devices will still slow down neighbouring devices.

I have a single router and all my devices switch back to 5ghz no problem. Any driver made in the last 5+ years prefers 5ghz when the signal is good. My router is up high on the 2nd floor but with aluminum siding there is no way the 5ghz signal is reaching outside.

There is no need for a separate AP or router for IOT, that's what guest is for (separate AP can actually defeat guest isolation). Limit them to 2.4ghz if you want, that can be done with guest.

Unless you're running 10 year old devices that have had no driver updates, the whole sticking to 2.4 ghz thing is not an issue anymore.

 

[slrt]

I have a single router and all my devices switch back to 5ghz no problem. Any driver made in the last 5+ years prefers 5ghz when the signal is good. My router is up high on the 2nd floor but with aluminum siding there is no way the 5ghz signal is reaching outside.

If you have just this one router, sure, your reception is limited. But if you added an AP covering your back yard, that would no longer be an issue.

There is no need for a separate AP or router for IOT, that's what guest is for (separate AP can actually defeat guest isolation). Limit them to 2.4ghz if you want, that can be done with guest.

It seems to me that you misunderstood the isolation I was referring to. It's not a matter of security or reachability - it's a matter of how WiFi routers work. The router answers its clients on a first-come first-serve basis. If there are many slow clients, the fast clients will suffer from degraded performance. Having a guest network has no effect here, since the router uses the same circuit for all clients on a band. See here a more detailed explanation.

Unless you're running 10 year old devices that have had no driver updates, the whole sticking to 2.4 ghz thing is not an issue anymore.

I've seen multiple instances of phones and laptops staying on the 2.4GHz for over an hour - just because nothing really made them move back, as long as their existing signal is good.

 

[drinkingbird]

If you have just this one router, sure, your reception is limited. But if you added an AP covering your back yard, that would no longer be an issue.

I used to have 3 APs, one front outdoor, one back yard, one inside. Roaming worked fine between bands and APs with the same SSID and some minimum RSSI settings. That setup was overkill though, my single router covers what I need. I had one really old Android 8 phone that would sometimes stick to 2.4 but turning on aggressive roaming fixed that.

It seems to me that you misunderstood the isolation I was referring to. It's not a matter of security or reachability - it's a matter of how WiFi routers work. The router answers its clients on a first-come first-serve basis. If there are many slow clients, the fast clients will suffer from degraded performance. Having a guest network has no effect here, since the router uses the same circuit for all clients on a band. See here a more detailed explanation.

Obviously if you're going to be running the devices in this thread that require B or G and especially if some are going to have low signal strength, a dedicated AP for them (as I suggested previously) may be the best bet, I would run it in router mode and block access to the main LAN, or if they support AiMesh use Guest 1 to maintain the isolation and security. I'm aware of how slow and poor signal clients impact the overall performance of an AP, no link needed.

I've seen multiple instances of phones and laptops staying on the 2.4GHz for over an hour - just because nothing really made them move back, as long as their existing signal is good.

Need to investigate those devices and see why they're operating in the previous decade. In reality, smart connect (which uses band steering) will help even with many of those older/poorly designed devices.

The suggestion to always run two different SSIDs for the two bands is severely outdated, similar to the 1/6/11 rule. While there are certainly circumstances where you'd want fixed in place devices like IOT stuff to stick to a single band or even AP, the workaround I mention of having a second SSID for those devices is a better solution than limiting all your devices. But obviously if you have solid 5ghz coverage in every part of your entire property, then of course you can have one main SSID on 5G only and one IOT SSID on 2.4 only. But that is not the case for most people.

 

[slrt]

I used to have 3 APs, one front outdoor, one back yard, one inside. Roaming worked fine between bands and APs with the same SSID and some minimum RSSI settings. That setup was overkill though, my single router covers what I need. I had one really old Android 8 phone that would sometimes stick to 2.4 but turning on aggressive roaming fixed that.

Android really handles this fine. However the issue still occurs with recent versions of OS X. Not sure if and when Apple will ever bother fixing it.

Obviously if you're going to be running the devices in this thread that require B or G and especially if some are going to have low signal strength, a dedicated AP for them (as I suggested previously) may be the best bet, I would run it in router mode and block access to the main LAN, or if they support AiMesh use Guest 1 to maintain the isolation and security. I'm aware of how slow and poor signal clients impact the overall performance of an AP, no link needed.

Again, I wasn't talking about security. For security, indeed a Guest Network can help - though if you need to run a controller like Home Assistant, VLANs are the way to go. IoT devices are by definition using dirt cheap SoCs for WiFi. Best case scenario its ESP32. I don't know how many IoT devices you have on your network - I have over 50. Whenever the number goes above 20, any device using the same band on the same router is bound to suffer, Guest Network or not. Using either a separate AP or avoiding the 2.4GHz band altogether are the only options that allow this to work.

Need to investigate those devices and see why they're operating in the previous decade. In reality, smart connect (which uses band steering) will help even with many of those older/poorly designed devices.

The suggestion to always run two different SSIDs for the two bands is severely outdated, similar to the 1/6/11 rule. While there are certainly circumstances where you'd want fixed in place devices like IOT stuff to stick to a single band or even AP, the workaround I mention of having a second SSID for those devices is a better solution than limiting all your devices. But obviously if you have solid 5ghz coverage in every part of your entire property, then of course you can have one main SSID on 5G only and one IOT SSID on 2.4 only. But that is not the case for most people.

It's not outdated, as OS X still has these issues, but even if that doesn't affect you, a second SSID does nothing to help against band slowdown. Most IoT devices can only see the 2.4GHz band anyway (and if they can use the 5GHz band, they are not really dirt cheap and slow).A separate AP for IoT will prevent these slow devices from further degrading the bandwidth for the phones and laptops.

 

[drinkingbird]

Again, I wasn't talking about security. For security, indeed a Guest Network can help - though if you need to run a controller like Home Assistant, VLANs are the way to go. IoT devices are by definition using dirt cheap SoCs for WiFi. Best case scenario its ESP32. I don't know how many IoT devices you have on your network - I have over 50. Whenever the number goes above 20, any device using the same band on the same router is bound to suffer, Guest Network or not. Using either a separate AP or avoiding the 2.4GHz band altogether are the only options that allow this to work.

If you're using 50 cheap IOT chipsets, yeah, you need multiple APs and preferably dedicated radios. VLAN or some other form of broadcast isolation too. But security is a major factor with IOT devices, can't just ignore that.

It's not outdated, as OS X still has these issues, but even if that doesn't affect you, a second SSID does nothing to help against band slowdown. Most IoT devices can only see the 2.4GHz band anyway (and if they can use the 5GHz band, they are not really dirt cheap and slow).A separate AP for IoT will prevent these slow devices from further degrading the bandwidth for the phones and laptops.

If you're doing like you said and dedicate 5ghz for phones and laptops and 2.4 for IOT then a second SSID (one for each band) certainly can help if you want to prevent mixing. But that 2.4ghz radio is only going to be able to do so much regardless. I can't speak to apple's issues but in reality for most people, a single SSID with band steering (part of smart connect and also implemented in many other vendors' versions) is the most flexible and "set it and forget it" solution. The average person doesn't have 50 IOT devices and won't be impacted if their apple phone or laptop is on 2.4 for a while (which if smart connect is set up correctly, shouldn't even happen much, if ever).

My point is, there is no blanket rule and your situation is different from many others, so saying for everyone to adopt your network design isn't good advice.

 

[slrt]

If you're using 50 cheap IOT chipsets, yeah, you need multiple APs and preferably dedicated radios. VLAN or some other form of broadcast isolation too. But security is a major factor with IOT devices, can't just ignore that.

Of course I'm not ignoring security, it's just not the point I was trying to make. From that aspect 2-3 (which almost everyone has) or 50 are exactly the same. If you allow these devices to connect to the Internet as well as your Intranet, you open up a serious security hole, and it's not widened according to the number of IoT devices on the network.

If you're doing like you said and dedicate 5ghz for phones and laptops and 2.4 for IOT then a second SSID (one for each band) certainly can help if you want to prevent mixing. But that 2.4ghz radio is only going to be able to do so much regardless. I can't speak to apple's issues but in reality for most people, a single SSID with band steering (part of smart connect and also implemented in many other vendors' versions) is the most flexible and "set it and forget it" solution. The average person doesn't have 50 IOT devices and won't be impacted if their apple phone or laptop is on 2.4 for a while (which if smart connect is set up correctly, shouldn't even happen much, if ever).

My point is, there is no blanket rule and your situation is different from many others, so saying for everyone to adopt your network design isn't good advice.

Or course there is no such thing as one solution fits all. The single SSID "set and forget" works OK for someone with no IoT devices, and no Macbooks. As soon as they start setting up IoT devices, things no longer work as expect. Specifically wrt 802.11ax, that these devices don't know how to handle, and in some cases the IoT device won't connect at all because the SSID is shared with the 5GHz band. My suggestion would give a consistent behavior even as people continue to grow their IoT presence (and they will, like it or not).

The real issue here is that IoT shouldn't really be using the same WiFi radio as normal devices to begin with, with Zigbee, Thread and Z-Wave providing a better and far more secure approach, but that's water under the bridge.

 

[drinkingbird]

Of course I'm not ignoring security, it's just not the point I was trying to make. From that aspect 2-3 (which almost everyone has) or 50 are exactly the same. If you allow these devices to connect to the Internet as well as your Intranet, you open up a serious security hole, and it's not widened according to the number of IoT devices on the network.



Or course there is no such thing as one solution fits all. The single SSID "set and forget" works OK for someone with no IoT devices, and no Macbooks. As soon as they start setting up IoT devices, things no longer work as expect. Specifically wrt 802.11ax, that these devices don't know how to handle, and in some cases the IoT device won't connect at all because the SSID is shared with the 5GHz band. My suggestion would give a consistent behavior even as people continue to grow their IoT presence (and they will, like it or not).

The real issue here is that IoT shouldn't really be using the same WiFi radio as normal devices to begin with, with Zigbee, Thread and Z-Wave providing a better and far more secure approach, but that's water under the bridge.

I've got around 10 IOTs and a single IOT SSID covering both bands (two devices I consider IOT support 5ghz), everything works fine. Of course I would not have or allow B or G stuff to connect, but the 2.4ghz N which nearly all IOT uses has not had any issues at all. Same experience with people I've set up AX for, the IOT devices don't have any issue with the fact that the 2.4 band has additional capabilities, since they can't see or use those capabilities.

Now the devices being discussed in this thread are an anomaly and certainly may need some special considerations, but the majority of people aren't using end of life open source devices.

 

[sfx2000]

Regards ESP-32 devices dropping on and off the network, have you looked at their signal strength? Especially if you have them stuffed into metal back-boxes their tiny antennas can really struggle to cope. At least that was my experience a couple of years back!

The challenge with the ESP devices is two-fold - firmware is part of it, but at @Crimliar mentions, the antenna solution for many of these devices is fairly challenged... and some of them are just not very good RF wise... it's not the Espressif chipset as much as it is the HW design where the chip and antenna are placed..

In RF - the client has a significant part here - it's going to make decisions based on its real-time view of the environment - that includes that it might hop from one AP to another, and also when to leave the WLAN and search for better service.

The ESP core firmware is very aggressive at WMM-Power Save, and this can have issues with some WiFi radios - as I mentioned, Broadcom seems to be more problematic here...

 

[slrt]

I've got around 10 IOTs and a single IOT SSID covering both bands (two devices I consider IOT support 5ghz), everything works fine. Of course I would not have or allow B or G stuff to connect, but the 2.4ghz N which nearly all IOT uses has not had any issues at all. Same experience with people I've set up AX for, the IOT devices don't have any issue with the fact that the 2.4 band has additional capabilities, since they can't see or use those capabilities.

Now the devices being discussed in this thread are an anomaly and certainly may need some special considerations, but the majority of people aren't using end of life open source devices.

What end-of-life open source devices??

These are brand new chips, actively being manufactured as we speak. They also do not come with the open source firmware - in most cases people need to go through hoops in order to flash the firmware in place of the original one, for security and reliability purposes. The issue is really with the design of the chips, that are both very slow and very aggressive in power saving. It affects a large variety of devices, from relays and switches to modules built into appliances like A/Cs and laundry machines. The devices you mentioned with 5GHz radio use an entirely different design, since they are meant for higher bandwidth.

In fact, according to your signature you're using an EoL WiFi 5 router, so it's no surprise that your handful of IoT devices work fine.

 

[drinkingbird]

What end-of-life open source devices??

These are brand new chips, actively being manufactured as we speak. They also do not come with the open source firmware - in most cases people need to go through hoops in order to flash the firmware in place of the original one, for security and reliability purposes. The issue is really with the design of the chips, that are both very slow and very aggressive in power saving. It affects a large variety of devices, from relays and switches to modules built into appliances like A/Cs and laundry machines. The devices you mentioned with 5GHz radio use an entirely different design, since they are meant for higher bandwidth.

In fact, according to your signature you're using an EoL WiFi 5 router, so it's no surprise that your handful of IoT devices work fine.

From what was said earlier in this thread, Tasmota (the subject of this discussion) are old devices being kept alive by volunteers.

My router is not EOL, nor does that have anything to do with it handling IOT well, if anything it would handle it worse.

 

[sfx2000]

From what was said earlier in this thread, Tasmota (the subject of this discussion) are old devices being kept alive by volunteers.

Tasmota has been used by a number of vendors as a base for the vendor firmware - much like OpenWRT...

Just because a device runs Tasmota, does not imply that it is obsolete or end-of-life...