Moca setup help

[axwell]

Doing some upgrading on my inlaws home network - previously they were just using the standard router and the wifi was struggling to get to the furthest room upstairs which they use like a lounge/tv room. Tried power plugs but the results weren't great so I installed a deco mesh network which is pretty good but still suffers a bit of a loss in the tv room - so I decided to look at a moca setup along with the mesh combined with a switch so that both wifi and ethernet would be decent up there and could use ethernet for the fire tv while laptops and phones etc could still run off the wifi.

I am using a Deco Mesh setup.

I bought 2 Motorola Bonded 2.0 adapters -https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B078HMDDVS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o06_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

When I checked their coax set up in the basement there was an 8-way amp on it which I discovered wasn't Moca compliant so I ordered this 9 port one https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07TN963JJ/?tag=snbforums-20

I set everything up but am not getting a Moca signal in the upstairs room and the 3 lights arent showing on the moca adapter downstairs (they do on the upstairs one) but I connected my ps5 to it to test and no luck.

The path is as follows:

incoming coax - amp - moca adapter - modem - mesh puck - moca adapter ethernet port > wall point upstairs - moca adapter 2 - tv box and ethernet port to ps5 to test connection.

The incoming line to the house in the basement goes into the amp - the various outputs I have then coming out of the amp, using output 2 as recommended in their video as the line going to the modem/router and the rest then going to the various points around the house. They included a power inserter with the moca compliant amp but not sure if that's necessary? Initially using the power inserter and the coax hooked up I wasnt getting any internet at the mesh network at all, then I watched their video about using output 2 as the best one for going to the router/modem so I changed that and also removed the power inserter to test that and this time I had internet via the mesh so I left it like that.

At the router then I have the coax going into the moca adapter - out of it and into the modem which is set to bridge mode and connect to the main deco on the mesh. The mesh is working so the signal seems to at least be going through the adapter ok - on the other ethernet port on the deco puck I have it running back into the moca adapter to pass the signal back to it - I then have the other moca adapter upstairs with the coax from the wall going through it to the set top box and the ethernet port connected to my ps5. On this moca adapter I get 3 green lights but on the one down by the modem I am only getting 2 - the third one showing a link does not light or blink.

As its not my own house I am not familiar with everything but as best I can see I have everything setup properly and the way it should be - the power inserter I wasnt sure on but as I said it worked without it. Its possible there is a splitter upstairs in the attic which is along the line somewhere before the upstairs room - I am going to investigate that tomorrow but outside of that I am stumped at why its not working?

I had assumed rightly or wrongly that once I was using a moca amp that the signal would get though fine (it has its own POE filter internally) and once I linked everything up it would connect between the two adapters but no joy.

Any ideas or advice appreciated - I can draw up the layout if needed but its pretty standard I think. I am assuming there is no other splitters outside the line coming in to the basement, and my father in law says he thinks the only place there is a splitter is in the attic to send the line to one or two of the rooms upstairs, I'm aware the splitter may be the issue and could be too low frequency and will check that tomorrow but maybe spots some issue in the setup or a familiar issue that crops up - ISP is TW/Spectrum if that makes any difference.

 

[degrub]

First - directly plug a single coax cable between the two motorolas (coax in port on each) to make sure they will sync.

Normally, a setup would have a two way splitter with one leg to the ISP modem and one to the moca adapter. The setup would not use the "pass through" filter on the moca adapter. . Try connecting the moca modem to one of the "out" ports and leaving the ISP modem on out port2.

you may well have to power the amp ( right hand side lower port in the corner) to achieve the zero loss through the splitter. moca modems generally have adequate power budget, but such a large number of ports may result in at least 7dB of loss if not more between ports. that plus the line losses to the end points may be an issue. The fact that the other existing equipment is working, suggests that signal loss is not the issue however. the moca modem might be providing power to the pass through port, but i don't know the motorola design.

 

[axwell]

Thanks for the reply - yeah i plan to do a test between the two adapters later to check that.

You mention a normal setup would use a splitter and not the pass through - as the router/modem is in bridge mode I need to pass through the deco for an ip etc as it seems there will be ip issues if I use the dhcp from the router to feed the deco. I have a switch I can use to divert things but again id still need the router/modem in bridge mode so the idea would be feeding the signal from the router to the deco the way it currently is (wifi works) and then feed the out from it to a switch and from it feed the moca adapter and they need another port for a pc or anything its available at the switch.

Edit: I had said moca above when I meant I need to run the ethernet through the deco for an IP etc. When you said splitter though I now see you meant splitting the incoming coax going to the moca and diverting it to the router instead of going through the adapter. But that creates a similar issue in that the location of the amp to the router means I can split it at the amp but its not near the router to then run the ethernet back into the moca adapter...i could put a splitter at the router which would be splitting the coax coming from out 2 on the amp at the point it reaches the router and divert one end to the moca and the other to the router and then link the ethernet from the deco back into the moca - would not using the pass through on the moca make that much difference, isn't that whats it intended to do? I have read elsewhere that
MoCA adapters use an internal diplexer to filter/direct signals, so the signal passed to the modem will be slightly stronger than if a splitter were used - along with isolating the modem from MoCA signals, and vice versa. The Motorola MM1000 I am using being the example.

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[axwell]

Edited my last post as I misread what you wrote the first time when I replied.

 

[degrub]

As long as the isp signal on the coax is below the lowest moca band, what you have done should work. If your isp is using doccis 3.1 std, then it may not as doccis 3.1 bands cross over into the lower moca2 and 2.5 bands. If the isp is using doccis 3.0, then it should work.

 

[axwell]

How would i find that out?

 

[axwell]

I also checked and there are no other splitters in the attic, all cables run from the basement up to the attic from the amp then run to the various rooms apart from the one on out 2 that runs to the modem in the office on the ground floor. So shouldnt be anything else there blocking it on the way.

 

[axwell]

So did the local test with the moca adapters connected to each other ...all good.

Did a test with one of them wired to the deco and to the other moca adapter just using a short coac between them and connected the ethernet port to a laptop....all good.

Put the first moca adapter back in between the coax from out 2 and the modem and added a switch the from the deco output and plugged the laptop into the switch

Went and connected everything back like it should be and have 3 lights in the moca adapter upstairs but no internet.

Everything looks right, lights on but no internet when I connect the same laptop and the same ethernet cable I tested it on downstairs but nothing...

 

[degrub]

Please draw a plan view picture of the layout of all the coax and ethernet cables and connected devices labeled so i can see what you have. Start at the demarcation box cable to the house. Much easier and less chance for error of interpretation of wording.

 

[degrub]

How would i find that out?

you start by looking at the specs for the cable modem. If it says DOCCis 3.1 compliant, you should be able to log into the modem and get a status page showing the frequency bands used. post a screen capture here.

 

[degrub]

So did the local test with the moca adapters connected to each other ...all good.

Did a test with one of them wired to the deco and to the other moca adapter just using a short coac between them and connected the ethernet port to a laptop....all good.

Put the first moca adapter back in between the coax from out 2 and the modem and added a switch the from the deco output and plugged the laptop into the switch

Went and connected everything back like it should be and have 3 lights in the moca adapter upstairs but no internet.

Everything looks right, lights on but no internet when I connect the same laptop and the same ethernet cable I tested it on downstairs but nothing...

Are there any other devices on the coax that use moca ? could be set top tv boxes, DVR, Tivo, the isp modem/router.

 

[degrub]

So did the local test with the moca adapters connected to each other ...all good.

Did a test with one of them wired to the deco and to the other moca adapter just using a short coac between them and connected the ethernet port to a laptop....all good.

Put the first moca adapter back in between the coax from out 2 and the modem and added a switch the from the deco output and plugged the laptop into the switch

Went and connected everything back like it should be and have 3 lights in the moca adapter upstairs but no internet.

Everything looks right, lights on but no internet when I connect the same laptop and the same ethernet cable I tested it on downstairs but nothing...

is there an ethernet cable from the moca modem ethernet port to a lan port of the router ?

 

[axwell]

Please draw a plan view picture of the layout of all the coax and ethernet cables and connected devices labeled so i can see what you have. Start at the demarcation box cable to the house. Much easier and less chance for error of interpretation of wording.

Bottom left is cable coming in at the basement..I havent checked the box outside..but as I tested the moca devices downstairs and they worked I assume theres no issues from the amp to the modem..

6 Cables come from the Amp to the attic and then run to the various locations - top left TV room is where the 2nd Moca is - coax from wall to moca to tv box - ethernet out of it into laptop - 3 green lights but no internet.

Other coax cable from amp - 2 going to tv boxes in bedrooms - 1 other going to a wall point and then it seems they ran 2 extra cables to the attic but didnt run them anywhere, they arent terminated or connected to anything, just cut at the end - would this cause an issue having them on the amp but going to nothing?

Also seems two of the cables have joiners on them where it looks like Spectrum maybe added to the cable to run it to the room from where they reached the attic - not splitters just joiners if thats the correct term.

Other 2 decos upstairs are wifi only - Main Deco passes wifi signal to deco 2 and 2 to deco 3.

 

[axwell]

you start by looking at the specs for the cable modem. If it says DOCCis 3.1 compliant, you should be able to log into the modem and get a status page showing the frequency bands used. post a screen capture here.

Its DocSIS 3.0

Model: TC8717T
Product Type: Technicolor DOCSIS 3.0 Packet Cable 2.0 advanced cable gateway

This the frequency bands you mean?

 

[axwell]

is there an ethernet cable from the moca modem ethernet port to a lan port of the router ?

Ethernet cable from the moca 1 goes to the ethernet port on the Deco as its providing the DHCP/IP etc - Router is in Bridge mode connected to the Deco which provides wi-fi and controls everything.

 

[degrub]

Those two unconnected cables - you need to terminate them with 75 ohm caps. Otherwise it can cause issues with reflections on the coax. You may just remove the cable from the 8 way splitter and terminate on the splitter with a cap on the unused port. do this for any unused port.

From the setup manual for the ISP modem -
"
Local networking features
MoCA 2.0 to interconnect your local MoCA devices (for example, your set-top box) via your coax network.
Wireless access for your local network devices via the integrated IEEE 802.11b/g/n 2.4 GHz and 5 GHz wireless access points.For more information, see “2.4 Connect your wireless devices” on page 17.
Wired access for your local network devices via the Ethernet interface.For more information, see “2.3 Connect your wired devices” on page 16.
An integrated file and media server allowing you to share your media with media players and other network devices. For more information, see “5 Sharing content” on page 37.
"

the ISP modem is trying to run MOCA 2.0 or 1.1 to the set top boxes most likely.

Are the set top boxes MOCA2 or MOCA 1.1 compliant ?
i suspect so as the TV room showed a synced motorola modem - possibly with one of the other set top boxes or the one in the TV room.

From Wikipedia -

MoCA 1.1
MoCA 1.1 provides 175 Mbit/s net throughputs (275 Mbit/s PHY rate) and operates in the 500 to 1500 MHz frequency range.[6]

MoCA 2.0
MoCA 2.0 offers actual throughputs (MAC rate) up to 1 Gbps. Operating frequency range is 500 to 1650 MHz. Packet error rate is 1 packet error in 100 million.[7]

MoCA 2.0 also offers lower power modes of sleep and standby and is backward interoperable with MoCA 1.1.[8]

In March 2017, SCTE/ISBE society and MoCA consortium began creating a new "standards operational practice" (SCTE 235) to provide MoCA 2.0 with Docsis 3.1 interoperability. Interoperability is necessary because both MoCA 2.0 and Docsis 3.1 may operate in the frequency range above 1 GHz. The standard "addresses the need to prevent degradation or failure of signals due to a shared frequency range above 1 GHz".



i think you need to set up the coax network to clearly place all MOCA nodes in parallel. Place a 2 way moca2 rated splitter where the ISP and Motorola modems are. You could use two different connections on the 8 way if convenient. Connect each modem to one of the branches. In the TV room do the same thing - connect the wall to a 2 way moca2 rated splitter input and the two branches to each of the devices - set top box and the motorola modem input.

You may see issues with syncing between the motorola units. Others have seen that the order of power up governs which device syncs first with the motorola modem. you can test this by powering down all moca devices including the ISP modem. 1) power up the motorola modems and see if they sync. If they do, then power up the ISP modem and the set top boxes. Confirm all of the set top boxes still provide TV signal. Then confirm the internet is accessible from the TV room motorola modem ethernet connection.

Or, it may just work. The Motorola modems should sync with each other at MOCA2 and sync with the STBs and the ISP modem at either MOCA2 or MOCA 1.1

 

[degrub]

Ethernet cable from the moca 1 goes to the ethernet port on the Deco as its providing the DHCP/IP etc - Router is in Bridge mode connected to the Deco which provides wi-fi and controls everything.

Does "bridge mode" on the ISP modem turn off MOCA2 in the ISP modem ?

i suspect not if they are still getting TV through the STBs . i suppose the STBs could operate independently of the ISP modem, but i do not know for sure as i have never had cable TV

 

[degrub]

i also found these in the troubleshooting section of the Motorola user guide -

5.If you have a cable modem/router with built-in MoCA, you may be having difficulties because the cable modem/router has MoCA security turned on. In that case you need to either turn the router’s MoCA security off or set up your MoCA Adapter for MoCA security. Please seeMoCA Security on page 8 for details.

6.Check to see whether there is a coax splitter near your router and/or the device that you want to connect to the router using MoCA. If you find a splitter, its frequency range should be shown on its label. Make sure that the upper frequency is at least 1,000 MHz (also called 1 GHz). If it’s not, replace that splitter. You may be able to swap with another splitter that’s in your home. If that’s not possible, you may need to buy a splitter whose upper frequency is at least 1,000 MHz and preferably at least 1,600 MHz. Check also to make sure that you’re not using an amplified splitter. If you are using an amplified splitter, replace it with one that’s not amplified and whose upper frequency is at least 1,000 MHz.

 

[degrub]

here is how to check for moca active on the ISP modem

best i can tell there is a small led light next to the coax port since it is not shown elsewhere in the manual.

 

[axwell]

The isp TWC/Spectrum disable moca on the modem by default and its locked out, its not possible to enable it. So that prob wipes out some of the above suggestions or questions.

Not sure about the tv boxes so it may be worth trying to the moca splitters like you suggested. Its starting to turn into more trouble than its worth but having bought these bits of equipment its also now a challenge just to get the stupid thing to work.