4K UHD streaming problem. Is it my router?

[TopDownRide]

So I was all excited about the Portal (it's in my Amazon cart) until I read your - very thorough - review.

I live in a condo & all my important devices are located in the open living area (one of those open-space kitchen/breakfast room/office nook/living room combos with sliding glass doors to a lanai serving as the only windows along the south wall).

Unfortunately, the Comcast tech insisted on connecting the main coax cable line outside, the one feeding my service, to the outlet next to my 11 yr old iMac in the 'office nook' corner of the open living area instead of the outlet next to the 4K UHD Smart TV where I need the speed.

I have a 150mbps ISP plan and my own equipment which although new, I'm looking to change because I'm having speed issues on the tv where I need the speed to stream, especially 4K (I don't have cable tv). On the 5GHz wifi network, I'm getting 179mbps on all my devices, even on my 2006 iMac running Lion, but the TV struggles to pull 12-30mbps. I just had Vizio replace all internals on the tv (it's brand new) because they insisted I should be getting at least 100mbps on my plan (new network card, motherboard, 4K module, etc.). Didn't help. Stumped the tech who was also a networking expert. Wired speeds are basically the same - I can't get more than 31mbps even wired.

I have an Arris sb6183 cable modem (16 down/4 up) although my ISP has 24 bonded down and an Apple AirPort Extreme for the router with the 5GHz network enabled with a unique SSID.

I haven't seen any issues with my wifi coverage but I've definitely had a lot of evidence that I'm having QoS, network fairness, and bandwidth allocation issues. Often, only one device at a time will get the 'fast' speeds of 179mbps and the others will test like this: device #1 = 179mbps, device #2 = 100mbps, device #3 = 70mbps, device #4 = 25-30mbps, device #5 = 7-12mbps, and device #6 = 1mbps.

The only thing that changes is which devices are #1, 2, 3, 4....etc., and the TV, wifi or wired, NEVER changes other than sometimes getting a 10-20mbps increase from wifi to wit4d but it never ever reaches 32mbps or above.


My area, especially due to the condo, is heavily congested with routers and SSIDs and the Comcast Xfinity Gateways hosting xfinitywifi hotspots. It's one of the reasons I chose the Apple AirPort Extreme and it's 5GHz weather band capability.

But there's something wrong. It's either some conflict with my ISP signal and the equipment or between my router and my cable modem, that I have the wrong cable modem for my setup/needs, that there's a problem with my router, not having QoS/bandwidth allocation mgmt/network fairness/etc. features, or that the TV is just flat out incapable of 100mbps despite having everything replaced.

I need blazing fast wireless speeds at least on the 5GHz network for my 4K Smart TV, my NVidia Shield Pro, running Plex & the NAS, using a Chromecast Ultra, and the new Apple TV 5th Gen (4K) when it comes out .....all to stream 4K both from sources like Netflix, Amazon, YouTube, VUDU, UltraFlix, etc., and also blu-ray 4K UHD rips.


All of that WALL of text to ask you .... what do you think about the Portal vs the Netgear Nighthawk X4S and what do you make of my situation/problem? I was really settled on the Portal and buying the 32 down/8 up DOCSIS 3.1 Arris sb8200 when it's back in stock until I read your article. Now, I'm wondering if the Nighthawk X4S is the best router for me? Thanks for confusing me, lol

 

[thiggins]

Uh, what's your concern about Portal?

 

[TopDownRide]

Based on your review it's slow and doesn't even compare to the Velop & others that your other tests & reviews show routers like yhe Nighthawk X4S roundly beat.....and that's the X4S not the X10 which I was looking at.

I need SPEED not coverage in a congested area where the 5GHz weather bands are likely ideal. I clearly have a problem with QoS, etc., like I spent an hour carefully detailing.

And the Portal review makes it look painfully slow on download & streaming from my NAS especially on wifi.

But I might be missing something which is the reason I took the time to register and write the War & Peace of posts.

 

[sfx2000]

I have an Arris sb6183 cable modem (16 down/4 up) although my ISP has 24 bonded down and an Apple AirPort Extreme for the router with the 5GHz network enabled with a unique SSID.

Set your Airport Extreme to Auto in the 5GHz band. and it'll do DFS just as well as Portal or any other router that handles DFS.

Note that in the DFS band, it uses the pre-2016 FCC limits, which is ok, as it'll still do 24 dBm Tx Power, which is pretty high for 80MHz 802.11ac channels

 

[TopDownRide]

Thank for taking your time to reply to my issue.

As I said in my wall of text, I am using the 5GHz band exclusively for the devices where I need speed like the 4K Smart TV and I have this pretty serious issue going on.

I was looking at the Portal to stay with a router that operated in the 5GHz weather bands like my current Apple Airport Extreme, but I think it's fairly clear I need QoS, bandwidth allocation/network fairness features which the Apple Airport Extreme lacks and the Portal has, which is the reason it caught my eye. Plus, the Apple Extreme is AC1750 and the Portal is at least 50% higher base but the extra features put it in par with AC3100 or greater routers according to tests

However the throughput results of the Portal in this review look absolutely sad compared to routers like the Nighthawk X4S and that is keeping me from buying it.


The other reason I took the time to write all these details was to see if my perhaps my cable modem is the source of the slow speed on my 4K Smart TV & the stacking of gge bandwidth/hogging of speed by whatever device becomes "primary" which I can't control.

The speeds to the tv are slow (17-31Mb/s) even directly wired to the Arris sb6183 cable modem via a Cat7 Ethernet cable while the 2006 iMac flies at 180+Mb/s on wifi.


That alone shows I have a serious problem - I just don't know where/how to fix it. I've already replaced the Arris 6183 CM with a new unit and nothing changed.

 

[thiggins]

Portal 5 GHZ throughput is better than Velop, not as good as NETGEAR R7800

https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/too...0com/3330-linksys-velop-whw0303?testmethod=31

https://www.smallnetbuilder.com/too...0com/3330-linksys-velop-whw0303?testmethod=31

How are you measuring speed to your TV?

 

[thiggins]

Set your Airport Extreme to Auto in the 5GHz band. and it'll do DFS just as well as Portal or any other router that handles

The difference with Portal comes when radar is detected. All other routers will drop all conceptions during the one minute CAC. Portal runs CAC on all DFS channels during boot, so can switch instantly to another channel, then run CAC on the vacated channel using its dedicated monitor radio without having to drop connections.

 

[TopDownRide]

The difference with Portal comes when radar is detected. All other routers will drop all conceptions during the one minute CAC. Portal runs CAC on all DFS channels during boot, so can switch instantly to another channel, then run CAC on the vacated channel using its dedicated monitor radio without having to drop connections.

Okay - so am I understanding that you're saying the only real advantage to the Portal is its lack of dropping out/having to wait to reconnect in the 5GHz weather bands? But that the rest of the features that affect speed, QoS, bandwidth allocation/network fairness, etc., are inferior to other AC routers like the R7800, etc.?


And the only way to measure my Smart TV speed (bc it does not have a web browser) is via the menu network speed test (inaccurate but consistent with increase/decrease/% change & with the other methods below), the integrated Netflix App, the integrated Yahoo Profile/System Admin/Info App, and the VUDU App, etc..

I test all the other devices via Ookla and the Xfinity speed tests.

Additionally, the Apple Airport Extreme has a hidden menu that displays connection speeds for each device but it is highly inaccurate for the TV (says the TV is at 500Mb/s lololol); accurate for the iMac & iPad; accurate readings approx 50% of the time for the Harman Kardon Aura speaker & the Amazon Echo Dot; and inaccurate for the Samsung Note 5 & the Chromecast Ultra.

I'm using those.

I just bought a NVidia Shield TV Pro but haven't set it up yet. That should give me additional speed readings.

Do you think the problem lies with the cable modem (since there is no significant change in speed wired vs wifi for either the TV or the iMac....the only two devices that can be wired until I set up my Shield)?

Or is it the router with poor network fairness/QoS, etc.?

 

[TopDownRide]

Btw, I even looked into buying a managed network switch but with the direct-wired-to-modem speeds not showing any increase, I figured that was a waste.

I also looked at buying a 1Gb powerline system to push the speed on the TV & to the Shield (& to the Apple TV 5th gen when it launches & I trade out my current ATV for it bc I want 4K) but again, with no change wired directly to the Arris sb6183 CM, it seems that a powerline adapter system wouldn't improve anything.....right?

This is all new to me so I'm fumbling a bit in the dark. I'm technically inclined but have a serious education gap when it comes to home networking.

 

[thiggins]

I can't comment about airtime fairness and QoS in any routers because I don't test them. So I don't know whether Portal is better or worse than the R7800.

Let's put aside the speed numbers for a bit. Let's confirm the main problem. You are trying to watch streamed 4K content on your Vizio TV using an Ethernet connection. What is the content source (Netflix?) and what happens when you try to watch 4K streams?

You don't need anywhere near 150 Mbps to watch 4K streams. Netflix says you need 25 Mbps. You say you have 31 Mbps (or the TV says it has), which should be fine.

 

[TopDownRide]

That gets into an a whole long thing about these low speed readings on the tv leading me down a path to discover a recent change/glitch in YouTube with their 4K UHD videos.

The option for 2160p has disappeared in their YouTube Apps and for many of us signed into our older YouTube accounts. We must either use Chrome incognito mode or create an entirely new YouTube account yo see any playback options of 2160p or higher and even then, the 2160p options "disappear", reappear, and/or are visible for some videos & not for others. These are all confirmed 4K UHD YouTube videos btw and I'm not the only one to see this, just one of the few who has bothered to look/check it out.

I'm assuming this is a glitch related to the launch of the new YouTube TV service that was unintended but even Chromecast Ultra no longer casts YouTube 4K UHD videos in 2160p (the icon will say HD not UHD & stats for nerds reveals resolution below 2160p) and casting YouTube 4K UHD videos IN UHD (2160p) is one of the main FEATURES of the Chromecast Ultra.

I was using the integrated YouTube App on my TV to watch 4K UHD on 2160p and starting approx 3 weeks ago, that ability disappeared and now they're downscaled to 1080p and can go no higher.

When this happened, I assumed it was the TV, not YouTube.

Secondly, I had been an Xfinitywifi HOTSPOT connection to get internet in my condo & the day the Xfinity tech came to install the cable internet service, I'd been streaming a NON 4K video on the TV in the integrated Amazon App & paused it. I clicked play when he left (he'd just speed checked the 2006 iMac to determine I was pulling 180Mb/s down) and I got an error message: "bandwidth inadequate to stream this content - do you wish to proceed".

That's when I realized I had a BIG Problem.

The Xfinitywifi hotspots get 1-17Mb/s max and I'd been doing fine. 4K content on VUDU, Amazon, Netflix, UltraFlix was streaming fine. No buffering.

My Xfinity cable internet plan is 150Mb/s and should put that hotspot to shame but it doesn't.

I was using the same router (Apple Extreme) and all the same devices with the Xfinitywifi hotspot connection (I used internet sharing on the iMac to source from "wifi" connected to "xfinitywifi" hotspot via an access pass & shared via Ethernet to the Apple Extreme router with my SSID on the 2.4GHz network as 5GHz was not enabled at that time). The only change was the addition of CABLE internet as the source and the Arris sb6183 as the CM.

After enabling the 5GHz network & creating a unique SSID for it, I connected the TV & Chromecast Ultra to it and resolved the "inadequate bandwidth" errors.

I can stream 4K just fine in Netflix, Amazon, and VUDU, but many videos buffer on UltraFlix and all the 4K & higher bandwidth content in Apps like Pluto & all content in PopcornFlix, etc., buffers or comes in with so much interference/pixelization that it's unwatchable or just won't stream at all.

That shows me I'm right in the "pocket" where I'm getting these speed readings - hovering just above & below 15Mb/s - a far cry from the 100-200Mb/s I should be getting. You know, I'd be thrilled to see just 50Mb/s on thr TV! Or 40! If I was consistently pulling ABOVE 20-25Mb/s then I wouldn't be having issues streaming UltraFlix or the other content that isn't the compressed Netflix/Amazon type of 4K.

YouTube no longer plays in 2160p no matter what. They won't acknowledge the recent issue of the 2160p playback options disappearing despite users like me posting threads about it in the YouTube & the Chromecast Ultra support forums.

Unfortunately, the YouTube issue makes my issues more complicated because there's always the chance the downscaling to 1080p is due to lack of bandwidth IN ADDITION to the missing 2160p options and/or instead of it ....when I log in under the incognito mode & can get the 2160p options back.


It's so complicated I didn't want to mention it.


But in summary, my TV will stream 4K on Netflix, Amazon, & VUDU no problem but those Apps compress their 4K & only need around 12Mb/s according to their site specs.

The regular content & 4K content on Apps that is not compressed and requires speeds of 25Mb/s and above is buffering, unwatchable, or will not stream at all (the Apps force close or lock up the TV) and that shows me I'm hovering in the low teens for network speed most of the time.

Finally, these Apps aren't "broken" ....they worked before the cable internet was installed/activated and when my network speeds do spike above 25Mb/s (max speed ever = 31Mb/s) periodically, they stream just fine.

 

[thiggins]

I appreciate the background, but don't need it. Too much to read.

If everything worked before with a different service and lower bandwidth, I think it pretty clearly points to the new service. And with things torn down to just the cable modem connected directly to the TV via Ethernet, the router isn't a factor either.

I'm not familiar with DOCSIS 3.0 cable modems and channel bonding. But I suspect your bandwidth problem may be in provisioning and the often forgotten fact that cable modem is a shared bandwidth technology.

At any rate, this issue is not related to Portal, so I've moved the thread.

 

[Elisha]

That gets into an a whole long thing about these low speed readings on the tv leading me down a path to discover a recent change/glitch in YouTube with their 4K UHD videos.

The option for 2160p has disappeared in their YouTube Apps and for many of us signed into our older YouTube accounts. We must either use Chrome incognito mode or create an entirely new YouTube account yo see any playback options of 2160p or higher and even then, the 2160p options "disappear", reappear, and/or are visible for some videos & not for others. These are all confirmed 4K UHD YouTube videos btw and I'm not the only one to see this, just one of the few who has bothered to look/check it out.

I'm assuming this is a glitch related to the launch of the new YouTube TV service that was unintended but even Chromecast Ultra no longer casts YouTube 4K UHD videos in 2160p (the icon will say HD not UHD & stats for nerds reveals resolution below 2160p) and casting YouTube 4K UHD videos IN UHD (2160p) is one of the main FEATURES of the Chromecast Ultra.

I was using the integrated YouTube App on my TV to watch 4K UHD on 2160p and starting approx 3 weeks ago, that ability disappeared and now they're downscaled to 1080p and can go no higher.

When this happened, I assumed it was the TV, not YouTube.

Secondly, I had been an Xfinitywifi HOTSPOT connection to get internet in my condo & the day the Xfinity tech came to install the cable internet service, I'd been streaming a NON 4K video on the TV in the integrated Amazon App & paused it. I clicked play when he left (he'd just speed checked the 2006 iMac to determine I was pulling 180Mb/s down) and I got an error message: "bandwidth inadequate to stream this content - do you wish to proceed".

That's when I realized I had a BIG Problem.

The Xfinitywifi hotspots get 1-17Mb/s max and I'd been doing fine. 4K content on VUDU, Amazon, Netflix, UltraFlix was streaming fine. No buffering.

My Xfinity cable internet plan is 150Mb/s and should put that hotspot to shame but it doesn't.

I was using the same router (Apple Extreme) and all the same devices with the Xfinitywifi hotspot connection (I used internet sharing on the iMac to source from "wifi" connected to "xfinitywifi" hotspot via an access pass & shared via Ethernet to the Apple Extreme router with my SSID on the 2.4GHz network as 5GHz was not enabled at that time). The only change was the addition of CABLE internet as the source and the Arris sb6183 as the CM.

After enabling the 5GHz network & creating a unique SSID for it, I connected the TV & Chromecast Ultra to it and resolved the "inadequate bandwidth" errors.

I can stream 4K just fine in Netflix, Amazon, and VUDU, but many videos buffer on UltraFlix and all the 4K & higher bandwidth content in Apps like Pluto & all content in PopcornFlix, etc., buffers or comes in with so much interference/pixelization that it's unwatchable or just won't stream at all.

That shows me I'm right in the "pocket" where I'm getting these speed readings - hovering just above & below 15Mb/s - a far cry from the 100-200Mb/s I should be getting. You know, I'd be thrilled to see just 50Mb/s on thr TV! Or 40! If I was consistently pulling ABOVE 20-25Mb/s then I wouldn't be having issues streaming UltraFlix or the other content that isn't the compressed Netflix/Amazon type of 4K.

YouTube no longer plays in 2160p no matter what. They won't acknowledge the recent issue of the 2160p playback options disappearing despite users like me posting threads about it in the YouTube & the Chromecast Ultra support forums.

Unfortunately, the YouTube issue makes my issues more complicated because there's always the chance the downscaling to 1080p is due to lack of bandwidth IN ADDITION to the missing 2160p options and/or instead of it ....when I log in under the incognito mode & can get the 2160p options back.


It's so complicated I didn't want to mention it.


But in summary, my TV will stream 4K on Netflix, Amazon, & VUDU no problem but those Apps compress their 4K & only need around 12Mb/s according to their site specs.

The regular content & 4K content on Apps that is not compressed and requires speeds of 25Mb/s and above is buffering, unwatchable, or will not stream at all (the Apps force close or lock up the TV) and that shows me I'm hovering in the low teens for network speed most of the time.

Finally, these Apps aren't "broken" ....they worked before the cable internet was installed/activated and when my network speeds do spike above 25Mb/s (max speed ever = 31Mb/s) periodically, they stream just fine.

2160p on YouTube works just fine on my Samsung KS8000 with built in app.
Also Netflix 4k streams are approximately ~20Mbps. Their 4k HDR is ~25Mbps.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[sfx2000]

4K streams - depends on the codec, but the minimum I would suggest is around 25 Mbit/Sec - which is harder than it sounds actually...

Full HD (1080p) should be fine with any AC1900 class router out there

 

[TopDownRide]

2160p on YouTube works just fine on my Samsung KS8000 with built in app.
Also Netflix 4k streams are approximately ~20Mbps. Their 4k HDR is ~25Mbps.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I have 4K but not HDR.


Samsung and LG put out Firmware fixes to correct the YouTube 4K UHD 2160p issue in December & January. (See posts all over the web about it and the problems owners were having prior to the FW updates. It was global - not just stateside.)

Not everyone with every single make & model TV was affected.

The 2160p option has disappeared from all YouTube iOS & Android Apps for a large segment of users & no one except you has reported they can see 2160p in the YouTube iOS or Android Apps while signed in. I've asked every single person I know or have met since this started last week & once they check, they're shocked to see it gone. Your anomaly could be enlightening if it's correct and you were checking the iOS &/or Android Apps not your TV which received one of the 2 major fixes and/or looking at the YouTube website from a PC or Mac running Yosemite or later.

Furthermore, the missing 2160p options seems to have affected anyone who customized their playback options in their YouTube account before that ability was removed recently.

The 2160p/UHD YouTube issue is a ongoing reported event with pages upon pages upon pages of posts reporting this issue in the YouTube support forums, Chromecast support forums, Google support forums, and YouTube feedback.

Count yourself lucky that you aren't affected.

 

[TopDownRide]

I appreciate the background, but don't need it. Too much to read.

If everything worked before with a different service and lower bandwidth, I think it pretty clearly points to the new service. And with things torn down to just the cable modem connected directly to the TV via Ethernet, the router isn't a factor either.

I'm not familiar with DOCSIS 3.0 cable modems and channel bonding. But I suspect your bandwidth problem may be in provisioning and the often forgotten fact that cable modem is a shared bandwidth technology.

At any rate, this issue is not related to Portal, so I've moved the thread.

Since I'm new to this, I have no idea what information might be critical if I omitted it & what might be irrelevant or redundant. I chose the wiser path of including it and I appreciate your patience.

Your conclusion is helpful.

Since my current CM has 16 down/4 up & O know my ISP has 24 bonded downstream channels, would upgrading to the Arris sb8200 32/8 be helpful? It's also DOCSIS 3.1.

(I think I should avoid the model in between my current Arris 6183, the Arris sb6190 that's 32/8 & DOCSIS 3.0 bc it has the Puma chipset that's been so problematic instead of the Broadcomm.)

Again, since I have a steep learning curve here, I'm a bit in the dark about the various features of the CM models & how they relate to speed other than the number of channels and DOCSIS 3.0 vs previous tech.

Also, how would I determine if I have an "incompatibility issue" between my CM & my router? This has been suggested by everyone who has looked at/tested my system (Xfinity onsite tech, Xfinity Tech support, Apple Tech Support, Vizio repair tech) but more as a throwaway "it must be that your modem & router don't get along" kind of comment when they recognize there's a problem but cannot identify the source.

 

[TopDownRide]

4K streams - depends on the codec, but the minimum I would suggest is around 25 Mbit/Sec - which is harder than it sounds actually...

Full HD (1080p) should be fine with any AC1900 class router out there

Right. And I cannot break the 31Mb/s barrier EVER on my Smart TV while on my 150Mb/s plan, even wired directly to the cable modem. On average, I'm getting 7Mb/S to 24Mb/s on the 5GHz network 802.11ac connection. Today for instance, I've been at 18Mb/S pretty much all day.

Meanwhile, my 2006 iMac running OS X 10.7.5 Lion is screaming down the digital highway at 179Mb/s on the 5GHz network with an 802.11n connection and 72Mb/s on the 2.4GHz network also "n" bc it's too outdated for "ac".

My iMac's graphics card can't handle 4K so it's frustrating to have the network speed everywhere I DON'T need it and nowhere I do (the 4K TV).

 

[Elisha]

Samsung and LG put out Firmware fixes to correct the YouTube 4K UHD 2160p issue in December & January.

Not everyone with every single make & model TV was affected.

The 2160p option has disappeared from all YouTube iOS & Android Apps for a large segment of users (no one except you has reported they can see 2160p in the YouTube iOS or Android Apps while signed in).

It seems to have affected anyone who customized their playback options in their YouTube account before that ability was removed recently.

Furthermore, the 2160p/UHD YouTube issue is a ongoing reported event with pages upon pages upon pages of posts reporting this issue in the YouTube support forums, Chromecast support forums, Google support forums, and YouTube feedback.

Count yourself lucky that you aren't affected.

Please stop speaking for everybody.
Why the hell would the Android app or iOS app need the 2160p option when only one known Android phone has a 4k screen?
Like I said, I'm not experiencing this issue on my Samsung KS8000 with the built in app or my Amazon 4k TV with its YouTube app. I haven't tried on my Xbox One S but then again I don't use it for any streaming services.
It takes about 5-10 seconds once the stream starts for it to kick into 4k from 1080p but it never fails to do so. On occasion YouTube may have an issue but it always gets resolved and 4k streams work fine.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[TopDownRide]

Please stop speaking for everybody. You're just being ignorant now!
Why the hell would the Android app or iOS app need the 2160p option when only one known Android phone has a 4k screen?
Like I said, I'm not experiencing this issue on my Samsung KS8000 with the built in app or my Amazon 4k TV with its YouTube app. I haven't tried on my Xbox One S but then again I don't use it for any streaming services.
It takes about 5-10 seconds once the stream starts for it to kick into 4k from 1080p but it never fails to do so. On occasion YouTube may have an issue but it always gets resolved and 4k streams work fine.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I said the Samsung & LG TV Apps had been fixed via a FW update months ago.

 

[sfx2000]

Meanwhile, my 2006 iMac running OS X 10.7.5 Lion is screaming down the digital highway at 179Mb/s on the 5GHz network with an 802.11n connection and 72Mb/s on the 2.4GHz network also "n" bc it's too outdated for "ac".

My iMac's graphics card can't handle 4K so it's frustrating to have the network speed everywhere I DON'T need it and nowhere I do (the 4K TV).

Don't worry so much about 4K on your iMac - it's not going to do it anyways considering it's from 2006 - depending on needs/requirements, you might want to consider getting current however, as 10.7 isn't getting security patches these days.

While 4K might be interesting - just consider trying to get the best performance on FullHD - 1080p - and with the Netflix, there are options in your account settings (on the website) that will help there.