wiring up new flat with two wireless routers for more coverage

[realslicedbread]

I want to setup my new flat with two routers, connected via gigabit ethernet, to increase wifi coverage.

I'm currently undecided between two Asus AC68U's, or two Netgear R7000's.

I just have a few questions on how to wire the routers once I get them. My cable modem enters the flat in the living room and this is where I'll have my HTPC, consoles etc as well. So the cable modem will connect to the WAN port of the first router, and the consoles etc will connect to the LAN ports.

Obviously one LAN port will connect to my second router. The second router will be in bridge mode, and will be in my study. I'll have my computers/NAS/servers connected to this second router.

Does the ethernet from my first/main router plug into the WAN port or a LAN port of the second router?

Also is it possible to setup the routers to create a unified wifi network across the flat? I'm trying to get seamless wifi switching between the two routers as I walk across the flat, without having to use separate SSIDs.

Thanks.

 

[overdrive31]

You'd need an awful big house to need 2x of those routers, my R7000 has a radius of like 300' using 2.4GHz. The 5GHz band, if you use it primarily, could use 2x of these routers to cover a large home.

When you are running cable to it, they call it an AP(access point), not bridge. You can either disable the DHCP server and plug into the LAN port to make an AP on the same subnet, just make sure to set it's IP to something outside of the main router's DHCP pool eg. main: 192.168.1.1, DHCP pool: 192.168.1.2 - 192.168.1.250, second: 192.168.1.254

The other option is to run it as a router with a separate subnet by plugging into the WAN port, but make sure the subnet is different from the main router eg. main: 192.168.1.1, second: 192.168.0.1 or 192.168.2.1

You can name both device's SSID the same, but to keep bandwidth high, you should space out the channels eg. main: channel 1(2.4GHz) 36(5GHz), second: channel 6 or 11(2.4GHz) 100 or 149(5GHz), and also keep 2.4GHz @ 20MHz channel width.

 

[realslicedbread]

Thanks that's quite informative.

Where I live the flats have lots of concrete walls and my wifi has trouble getting through. Currently running an apple AirPort Extreme (latest 802.11ac version) and both 2.4ghz and 5ghz signals have trouble reaching the ends of the smaller flat I'm in now. My new flat will be larger and has more walls between the two ends. I though I might as well ensure good coverage by wiring it all with Ethernet and have two wireless AP's.

What would be the benefit of having two active routers and two subnets rather the one subnet and one router in AP mode?
Thanks

 

[CaptainSTX]

There isn't any advantage of having two subnets unless you need or want to use functions on the router functioning as an AP which are only available when it is in the router mode.

Double NATed routers make it more difficult to share resources between the two networks. This can be an advantage if you want to use the second router to host your guest network and have a printer or NAS on your primary network.

 

[stevech]

Use only one "router". For added coverage, purchase a WiFi access point (AP) or re-purpose a router to be an AP.
see
http://www.smallnetbuilder.com/wire...onvert-a-wireless-router-into-an-access-point

once changed, it is an AP not a router, and its WAN port goes unused.

 

[realslicedbread]

Thanks, I think I've got it with regards to the router/AP setup.

I'm undecided on how to wire the flat for Ethernet. The cable modem comes into the living room in the east-most side of the flat, and can't be changed. This is where my main wireless router and tv-connected stuff will be.

All the other rooms (and living room) will be wired to the study, in the west-most side of the flat is. These should all connect into the wireless AP in the study, along with my computers, NAS, servers etc.

Essentially most of my computers will be wired via GbE to the wireless AP in the study. One long GbE line will connect this AP to the router in the living room, and all the other wired devices will connect to the router.

Would this be an appropriate layout? Or should I figure out a way to get all wired devices connecting to the same physical switch?

 

[stevech]

Given this

Essentially most of my computers will be wired via GbE to the wireless AP in the study.

We're on the wrong architecture.
Do you mean that computers are wired via cat5 to something which then uses WiFi to reach the router and internet?

If so, that is not an AP. It's a WiFi client bridge. Such a bridge uses WiFi to link to the router - only because running cat5 is not feasible. The bridge becomes a client on the WiFi network, and bridges data between WiFi and a cat5 connection (RJ45 socket). Some bridges have a switch built in to provide multiple ports. Otherwise an externally connected switch is fine.

But Let's get your needs clarified. A WiFi bridge might have 10/100 or 10/100/1000 cat5 connections, but the speed is limited by WiFi to/from the router.

An Access Point connects to a router and provides more coverage for WiFi clients, not cat5 wired clients. So it's kind of the opposite of a WiFi bridge.

If your issue is that you cannot get cat5 to the room ... then I'd first look at using IP on the AC power wires instead of WiFi, for computers that are based on wired, not WiFi. This IP on power wiring is called HomePlug or other names.

On this forum is a section called HomePlug/MoCA or some such.

If you have a TV coax outlet in the room lacking good coverage, and a TV coax outlet somewhat near where the Router is or could be in the other room, you can use MoCA (IP over TV coax) insted of IP over power lines.

 

[realslicedbread]

I've explained myself poorly, so apologies.

My wifi across the flat is for mobile devices like phones, tablets, laptops etc. I'm also renovating the flat so I'm wiring up the whole place with new GbE connections towards the study. And I wanted better wifi coverage hence I want to use a wifi router at each end of the flat.

The rooms will all have a GbE connection to my study, so a line from the three other bedrooms and the living room each head to the study.

In the living room it'll be cable modem -> wireless router -> (consoles, htpc) and towards the study.

The study will have the other router (in AP mode) receiving wired GbE connections from the main router (living room), desktops etc from the other rooms, and my main PC and NAS.

My previous question was whether it's better to have all the wired GbE devices to connect to one physical router/switch (ie change my wiring to all head to the living room router instead), or is it ok to have wired devices split across two routers (but the routers are connected by GbE)?

 

[stevech]

You have one router, right? And one AP which "was" a router. It's an AP now.
Let's clarify the lingo.

If you can "home run" all cat5 to one place, great. But it matters little whether you have switches to reduce the number of cables to be run.

I suggest you buy a $30 gigE switch and place it such that the number of cat5's is reduced.

The re-purposed router as AP has 4 LAN ports. Thus, this is an AP + Switch all in one. The WAN port goes unused. Daisy-chained switches are fine, no real impact on speed.

I use a purposed AP: ASUS RT-N12 which was $35 at Fry's. It has an explicit AP mode, in addition to router mode. I had used various routers re-purposed as APs but most needed rebooting now and then (some weekly). This ASUS product has not had that issue. You may luck-out and have a reliable router-as-AP. I wouldn't go to the hassle of using 3rd party firmware on a router in order to get an AP.

 

[Dreamslacker]

Does the ethernet from my first/main router plug into the WAN port or a LAN port of the second router?

Thanks.

Both of these routers have a dedicated Access Point mode (activate through WebGUI). You'll connect the unit that is dedicated as an AP via it's WAN port to the LAN segment of the main gateway.

In this mode, the 'LAN' ports of the AP are switched (bridged) to the 'WAN' port. i.e. It becomes a 5 port switch with a wireless access point.

For cabling your apartment, run at least 2 (preferably 3) network points from the living room to the main network distribution point (study room?).

This will allow for you to relocate your router to the network DP area instead. i.e. Modem uses one drop to go to the router, router LAN uses the 2nd drop to feed devices at the TV.
If you have 3, then you can pipe related services such as IPTV (to STB) that may not ride on the same LAN segment.
The same applies if you ever go Fibre (You're located in SG?).

 

[overdrive31]

The two mentioned routers do have AP modes that utilize the WAN port, but I am pretty sure they resort to using a DHCP assigned address when using this setup. A static IP is easier to remember when needing to configure settings, and not chasing a dynamic IP around. You can setup a static IP on the R7000 and possibly on the AC68U(can't determine how with the manual or emulator) in "AP mode", but it is definitely DHCP by default with little documentation on how to setup.

I still recommend using the method I described in my first reply. If the extra switch port is needed, they can install DD-WRT and assign the WAN port to switch.

PS. The Airport Router is equivalent to my old D-Link DIR 825, radius was more like 40', now think about the difference the R7000 makes with 300' radius despite your concrete walls. I believe the one router would be enough, esp. if you do like Dreamslacker had suggested with running cable and put the router somewhere more central.

 

[realslicedbread]

PS. The Airport Router is equivalent to my old D-Link DIR 825, radius was more like 40', now think about the difference the R7000 makes with 300' radius despite your concrete walls. I believe the one router would be enough, esp. if you do like Dreamslacker had suggested with running cable and put the router somewhere more central.

I think I'll get ethernet across the flat first but try with one router. If the coverage is poor I'll get the second one.

For cabling your apartment, run at least 2 (preferably 3) network points from the living room to the main network distribution point (study room?).

This will allow for you to relocate your router to the network DP area instead. i.e. Modem uses one drop to go to the router, router LAN uses the 2nd drop to feed devices at the TV.
If you have 3, then you can pipe related services such as IPTV (to STB) that may not ride on the same LAN segment.
The same applies if you ever go Fibre (You're located in SG?).

I am in Hong Kong. Can you go into a bit more detail why I should get 2-3 ethernet connections from the living room to the study? Are you saying cable modem in living room feeds to ethernet to router in study; then another ethernet cable from study BACK to the living room for the TV devices?

thanks

 

[Dreamslacker]

Can you go into a bit more detail why I should get 2-3 ethernet connections from the living room to the study? Are you saying cable modem in living room feeds to ethernet to router in study; then another ethernet cable from study BACK to the living room for the TV devices?

thanks

Yes. One is for Modem -> Router WAN. The other is for Router LAN back to Living Room (or router to IPTV set top box if you subscribe to the services).

I believe you might be able to get by with a single AC68U in a more central location. It will provide decent wireless penetration through 2 or 3 concrete and rebar walls depending on the angle.
The Apple Extreme units look nice but they don't have the high gain antennas of the AC6X units so I won't count on them to do more than 1 - 2 concrete walls.

 

[realslicedbread]

Problem is my living room is on one end, and the study on the opposite end of the flat. These are the two best locations for wiring up the routers. Can't find a good location centrally to wire one router though.

Thanks, I'll think about these ideas.

One last question (i swear!) - is there a difference between getting Cat 6 cable laid down rather than Cat 5e?

 

[Dreamslacker]

Problem is my living room is on one end, and the study on the opposite end of the flat. These are the two best locations for wiring up the routers. Can't find a good location centrally to wire one router though.

Thanks, I'll think about these ideas.

One last question (i swear!) - is there a difference between getting Cat 6 cable laid down rather than Cat 5e?

If both are laid and terminated properly, there won't be a difference unless you are going to run 10GbE. For 1GbE, both are effectively the same. Cat 6 cable tends to be more robust and survives shoddy workmanship better (I've encountered electricians who pull cables through concealed conduits without lubricants and the jackets start to tear).

 

[stevech]

cat6 is an awkward overkill for this, unless you have the walls open and are doing very long term wiring.

The plugs on cat5e can be put on DIY but not so cat6. So if you use cat6, buy the right lengths and with plugs pre-attached.
Inside walls, in attics, etc. be aware of local fire codes. In the US, most such have to be plenum rated.

 

[sfx2000]

I want to setup my new flat with two routers, connected via gigabit ethernet, to increase wifi coverage.

Unless your flat is over 1500 sq ft, don't worry about it - most SOHO ap's can handle this...

 

[Dreamslacker]

cat6 is an awkward overkill for this, unless you have the walls open and are doing very long term wiring.

The plugs on cat5e can be put on DIY but not so cat6. So if you use cat6, buy the right lengths and with plugs pre-attached.
Inside walls, in attics, etc. be aware of local fire codes. In the US, most such have to be plenum rated.

It's probably a perma-install. Flats in our countries are concrete and rebar and there are fairly strict building regulations to adhere to for A&A works.

Cables do not need to be plenum rated (CMR will suffice) because it's almost compulsory to have fire retardant conduits for both surface and buried cabling.
I did run plenum rated AMP Enhanced Cat5 (about the time when C5E first came about) FTP for my own place in the past but that's only because it was what was available from my supplier at the time.

As for DIY Cat 6 cables, I do it all the time. It's a matter of knowing how to maintain the pair twist, getting the right connectors and taking pride in your work. For the OP, I wouldn't recommend it. It takes quite a lot of experience making, messing up and learning to get it right for cables.

 

[Dreamslacker]

Unless your flat is over 1500 sq ft, don't worry about it - most SOHO ap's can handle this...

Unlike the States, we have almost exclusively concrete and re-bar retainer walls and support columns in flats in our countries. A single AP won't cut it if the apartment is in an elongated shape (as with mine).

I have 1500 Sq Ft in a longish rectangular block (5 rooms, 4 walls in a row) and a single AP can only punch through 2 walls before dropping to an RSSI of -75dB (insufficient for iPhones to connect).
I've tried high power APs (280mW) with 28dBi directional antennas and they don't cut it either (it gives me coverage through one more wall). I now have 3 basic APs (converted routers) at both ends and the room in the middle to cover myself. Will be swapping them out for converted Edimax BR-6478AC once I get the time to hack them (capacitors, PSU & 7dBi antenna mods).

 

[realslicedbread]

i don't plan on going as far as doing modded/DIY AP's or extra gain antennas. However in my existing smaller flat, I already run into issues of Wifi signal in certain rooms, and I highly suspect it is due to the concrete walls.

In the new place the bedroom and living room are even further apart, and according to the developer's floorplans there is one more concrete wall and I have now. Almost certain a single AP won't cut it (but TBH haven't tested yet as I haven't moved in). As we bought the place ourselves we want to do a lot of renovation works such as air conditioning, plumbing, repartitioning some rooms etc., so it will be a fairly big job. I thought I might as well do ethernet across the flat while I'm at it.

thanks.