Matching MoCA adapter brand to the modem?

[IAVV]

Hello everyone,

I'm looking to set up a MoCA network in my new home (new to the concept, haven't set one up before); and, though I'm confident on how to set this up correctly, I had one question about which brand of adapter to go with.

I have a Hintron DOCSIS 3.1 E31N2V1, with Spectrum as my provider. Is it best to match my adapters to Hintron to avoid issues with competing frequencies, or would any decent brand work just the same? I will need to use PoE filters anyhow, but I'm wondering if Hintron would be building their adapters with all of their own models in mind, and would try to avoid having frequencies run into each other, even on DOCSIS 3.1 models. Here is the model I was looking at.

Another question I have is whether I should just choke down my pride and buy a better modem that can handle 10gb uploads and is prebuilt to be MoCA compatible — that's something my wife certainly won't be happy with, so please help a penny pincher out.

Sláinte,

IAVV

 

[drinkingbird]

Hello everyone,

I'm looking to set up a MoCA network in my new home (new to the concept, haven't set one up before); and, though I'm confident on how to set this up correctly, I had one question about which brand of adapter to go with.

I have a Hintron DOCSIS 3.1 E31N2V1, with Spectrum as my provider. Is it best to match my adapters to Hintron to avoid issues with competing frequencies, or would any decent brand work just the same? I will need to use PoE filters anyhow, but I'm wondering if Hintron would be building their adapters with all of their own models in mind, and would try to avoid having frequencies run into each other, even on DOCSIS 3.1 models. Here is the model I was looking at.

Another question I have is whether I should just choke down my pride and buy a better modem that can handle 10gb uploads and is prebuilt to be MoCA compatible — that's something my wife certainly won't be happy with, so please help a penny pincher out.

Sláinte,

IAVV

Need more info - DOCSIS is totally different from MOCA and it will consume a lot of the bandwidth on the coax. DOCSIS is the "WAN" side of your modem. Is that what you are trying to extend? If so, MOCA is not what you need, you just need to extend the coax cable, the modem has DOCSIS built in.

If you're looking to extend the LAN side of the modem to a router or whatever, any brand MOCA will do, no need to match it to the modem. Hintron does make them, GoCoax and Actiontec's ScreenBeam are also popular. Asus and Trendnet also make their own, motorola too, etc. Plenty of brands out there. Go with MOCA 2.0 (1 gig) or 2.5 (2.5 gig), not the old 1.0. There is another standard called G.HN, but I'd stick with the more popular MOCA. You can often find ISP rebadged actiontec MOCA 2.0 adapters on ebay/amazon, they'll say Frontier, Verizon, etc but will work fine. I saw a refurbished set of TrendNET ones on amazon the other day too, not sure if they're still there but they were pretty cheap.

Note that I would not really want to run MOCA and DOCSIS over the same coax. In theory it should work but they will likely compete for bandwidth and potentially interfere, especially if you have a high internet speed tier. Better to keep the two isolated if possible. The preference is when possible to just set up a separate splitter isolated from the rest of your coax for the MOCA adapters (though not always possible obviously). You can get filters to block the MOCA signals from flowing beyond where you want them to so that is another option, just keep the modem outside of that MOCA zone if possible.

I have not heard of a modem with MOCA built in. The only routers I've seen with it are FIOS/Frontier ones and they are MOCA 1.0 (and run MOCA-WAN, not MOCA-LAN anyway). Both of those ISPs did have an extender that had MOCA LAN built in but it was also MOCA 1.0. No need to try and get a device with it built in, personally I'd rather have it separate and thus separately upgradeable and movable.

 

[degrub]

Physically isolate the coax to be used for MOCA away from the coax used to feed from your ISP to the modem. DOCCIS3.1 and higher start to stomp on the frequency bands used by MOCA2 and 2.5 . That will save you some issues and bandwidth.

If you have multiple branches on the MOCA network, you will need a MOCA2/2.5 compatible splitter. Depending on the number of branches and the specific splitter, you may not need to use a MOCA POE filter, just make sure all unused ports are capped with 75 ohm resistor caps and same for any attached but unused coax runs (cap at wall plate).

 

[IAVV]

Need more info - DOCSIS is totally different from MOCA and it will consume a lot of the bandwidth on the coax. DOCSIS is the "WAN" side of your modem. Is that what you are trying to extend? If so, MOCA is not what you need, you just need to extend the coax cable, the modem has DOCSIS built in.

If you're looking to extend the LAN side of the modem to a router or whatever, any brand MOCA will do, no need to match it to the modem. Hintron does make them, GoCoax and Actiontec's ScreenBeam are also popular. Asus and Trendnet also make their own, motorola too, etc. Plenty of brands out there. Go with MOCA 2.0 (1 gig) or 2.5 (2.5 gig), not the old 1.0. There is another standard called G.HN, but I'd stick with the more popular MOCA. You can often find ISP rebadged actiontec MOCA 2.0 adapters on ebay/amazon, they'll say Frontier, Verizon, etc but will work fine. I saw a refurbished set of TrendNET ones on amazon the other day too, not sure if they're still there but they were pretty cheap.

Note that I would not really want to run MOCA and DOCSIS over the same coax. In theory it should work but they will likely compete for bandwidth and potentially interfere, especially if you have a high internet speed tier. Better to keep the two isolated if possible. The preference is when possible to just set up a separate splitter isolated from the rest of your coax for the MOCA adapters (though not always possible obviously). You can get filters to block the MOCA signals from flowing beyond where you want them to so that is another option, just keep the modem outside of that MOCA zone if possible.

I have not heard of a modem with MOCA built in. The only routers I've seen with it are FIOS/Frontier ones and they are MOCA 1.0 (and run MOCA-WAN, not MOCA-LAN anyway). Both of those ISPs did have an extender that had MOCA LAN built in but it was also MOCA 1.0. No need to try and get a device with it built in, personally I'd rather have it separate and thus separately upgradeable and movable.

I am trying to extend my LAN so that I can get internet to my basement office and my wife's computer room upstairs.

I'm wary of running MOCA and DOCSIS together too, but with the layout of the house it makes the most sense out of any of the other options. It's not crazy high speed internet, 70-90mbps when on ethernet or when right beside the router, so I think with some filters I should at least get decent, consistent internet throughout the house. The biggest problem I have at the moment is that wifi cutting off constantly in the basement, running 10mbps or less or just dropping completely, which is an issue for my work.

The only other solution I see besides forking cash over to Spectrum is drilling a hole through the floor and running ethernet from the router straight to my work computer (the office is right below the living room), but convincing my wife to let me do that...

I'm following this video guide for installation, and at about 2:50 he mentions that there are modems that are pre-equipped with MOCA ability.

Thanks for the clarifications!

 

[IAVV]

Physically isolate the coax to be used for MOCA away from the coax used to feed from your ISP to the modem. DOCCIS3.1 and higher start to stomp on the frequency bands used by MOCA2 and 2.5 . That will save you some issues and bandwidth.

If you have multiple branches on the MOCA network, you will need a MOCA2/2.5 compatible splitter. Depending on the number of branches and the specific splitter, you may not need to use a MOCA POE filter, just make sure all unused ports are capped with 75 ohm resistor caps and same for any attached but unused coax runs (cap at wall plate).

By physically isolate, what would you mean by that? Would I just need to prevent them from touching, or do I need to keep them in lead lined boxes? Don't the modem, router, and MOCA adapter have to all be connected to one another at the access point? I'm following this video guide for installation since his set up is most similar to my own.

My network band is 2.4GHz, if that changes anything. I was going to use the POE filters anyhow, just to be safe.

Thank you for the help!

 

[degrub]

If you only need to extend to one point, a pair of MOCA2 or 2.5 modems and an unused coax run to the room is all you need.
Locate one moca modem where you can reach it with an ethernet cable from your router ( or a switch). Locate the other modem in your office where you can run either a long enough coax cable from the wall to the modem or a long enough ethernet cable from the modem to the PC or switch, whatever you need there. No need for any splitter or MOCA POE filter.
You also need a power outlet to plug in the power supply for the moca modem.
Should not need to have any sharing of the coax cable with the Cable modem thus eliminating conflicts and providing you with maximum bandwidth available between the moca modems. .

Physical isolate = not connected with coax between the moca modems and the DOCCIS modem.
So if you have a coax run from your central point near the ISP DOCCIS coax modem that connects to the house coax splitter, just disconnect that piece of coax that goes to the office from the house splitter, connect it to the moca modem. In the office, just connect your other coax modem to the wall plate with a short piece of coax ( usually provided with a pair of moca modem kit).

a sketch of the location of equipment and the layout of everything on the house coax would be useful for us to help you.
Where the ISP modem and router is located, where the main house splitter is located, relative to the office can matter as to how easy this is.

 

[IAVV]

If you only need to extend to one point, a pair of MOCA2 or 2.5 modems and an unused coax run to the room is all you need.
Locate one moca modem where you can reach it with an ethernet cable from your router ( or a switch). Locate the other modem in your office where you can run either a long enough coax cable from the wall to the modem or a long enough ethernet cable from the modem to the PC or switch, whatever you need there. No need for any splitter or MOCA POE filter.
You also need a power outlet to plug in the power supply for the moca modem.
Should not need to have any sharing of the coax cable with the Cable modem thus eliminating conflicts and providing you with maximum bandwidth available between the moca modems. .

Physical isolate = not connected with coax between the moca modems and the DOCCIS modem.
So if you have a coax run from your central point near the ISP DOCCIS coax modem that connects to the house coax splitter, just disconnect that piece of coax that goes to the office from the house splitter, connect it to the moca modem. In the office, just connect your other coax modem to the wall plate with a short piece of coax ( usually provided with a pair of moca modem kit).

a sketch of the location of equipment and the layout of everything on the house coax would be useful for us to help you.
Where the ISP modem and router is located, where the main house splitter is located, relative to the office can matter as to how easy this is.

Here's some sketches of what I have set up.

Yesterday, I got the living room and basement set up and the MOCA network was working, but when I set up the upstairs it was no longer working. At nearly the same time, there was an outage in my area and so my internet was down for 15 hours, so I haven't been able to troubleshoot anything. Now, all the indicator lights on the adapters have LAN flashing, but no MOCA.

I know you suggested not using the same line for the modem and the MOCA network, which you'll probably chew me out for There were just many other tutorials online that said to do this kind of set up, and so I hedged my bets. Running cables between adapters isn't feasible unless we had 300 ft cables running through the house, and I've already been told no to that idea by the missus. Adjustments to this layout are the only option I have.

Both offices are directly above and below the living room, and the cable box with the main house splitter is on the outside wall of the living room.

 

[degrub]

1) are all of the splitters shown MOCA2.0/2.5 certified ?
2) the POE filter shown on the splitter with the line from the street needs to be on the inlet port that the street coax is attached to. As shown, it will block all MOCA signals to other connections in the house.
3) IF you had MOCA sync indication on the Basement and the LR moca modems AND both locations had internet, then something is not correct in the sketch for coax connections. It is possible that a set top box was syncing with a moca modem rather than the two modems syncing. Also, there may be other splitters not shown ?

 

[CaptainSTX]

I would remove the POE filter connected to the modem and the other POE filter should be connected on the leg going to the street. Try that then be sure that all the splitters are capable of passing the MOCA frequencies.

If that isn't the solution then you need to verify continuity on the coaxial links. Also be sure there isn't a line powered amp somewhere in your coaxial network that has stopped working.

 

[degrub]

The POE filter at the DOCCIS modem is only helpful IF the modem is NOT using any of the MOCA2 frequency bands. You may have to check in the modem to see what bands are in use after removing both POE filters, rebooting the modem, and then let it resync with the cable providers for a day.

 

[IAVV]

1) are all of the splitters shown MOCA2.0/2.5 certified ?
2) the POE filter shown on the splitter with the line from the street needs to be on the inlet port that the street coax is attached to. As shown, it will block all MOCA signals to other connections in the house.
3) IF you had MOCA sync indication on the Basement and the LR moca modems AND both locations had internet, then something is not correct in the sketch for coax connections. It is possible that a set top box was syncing with a moca modem rather than the two modems syncing. Also, there may be other splitters not shown ?

Fixed the PoE filter in the line from the street, and took the filter off on the DOCCIS. It is now as shown:

.


For your third question: I first set up the modem in the living room a day before the others, then the basement and upstairs yesterday.. I had gotten only the basement office to work for about 5 minutes, but everything seemed to stop working when I tried connecting the upstairs office. I tried unplugging and plugging everything back in at all three places but nothing reconnected. It was only after this did I add the PoE filters, hoping that this might help. It's difficult for me to tell whether adding the third MOCA modem was the issue, because we got a report from Spectrum of outages in our area at around the same time I was setting everything up. Weird timing on that.

There is no set top box, I don't have cable. Whether or not there are other splitters in the house, I do not know, but I can check behind the wall panels to see if there are any. If they aren't there, is there anywhere else they could be?

The fact that I did have wired internet for a little bit makes me believe that the splitters are certified, but I can run to the hardware store and grab new ones. The splitter connected to the house line is an Antronix CMDT2106L, and the one connected in the living room is a Commonscope SV-2G, both labeled as 5-1002MHz. The modem has a frequency range of 258MHz-1218MHz. The MOCA modems have a switch on them that allows them to change frequency bands, so I can go either 1125-1625MHz or 1275-1675MHz. Should I leave them as shown in the diagram or should I switch them to the other frequency band?

 

[IAVV]

I would remove the POE filter connected to the modem and the other POE filter should be connected on the leg going to the street. Try that then be sure that all the splitters are capable of passing the MOCA frequencies.

If that isn't the solution then you need to verify continuity on the coaxial links. Also be sure there isn't a line powered amp somewhere in your coaxial network that has stopped working.

Where would I find a line powered amp in the coax network? I can go spelunking if need be.

 

[sfx2000]

remember with MOCA - it's not just the splitters and amps - you can throw a lot of power and still get poor results.

cabling inside the premises is key - RG58, high quality terminations, bandwidth on the splits -from demarc to the end points...

Some hints - https://help.motorolanetwork.com/hc...68164507-Coax-Network-Considerations-For-MoCA

If the house is over 10 years old, the internal CATV wiring is likely not up to spec, same goes with splitters, etc...

 

[drinkingbird]

remember with MOCA - it's not just the splitters and amps - you can throw a lot of power and still get poor results.

cabling inside the premises is key - RG58, high quality terminations, bandwidth on the splits -from demarc to the end points...

Some hints - https://help.motorolanetwork.com/hc...68164507-Coax-Network-Considerations-For-MoCA

If the house is over 10 years old, the internal CATV wiring is likely not up to spec, same goes with splitters, etc...

RG58 is probably going to have a lot of trouble with MOCA 2 or 2.5 especially with multiple MOCA connections over the same cable.

RG6 Quad and more recently Tri has been common for 20+ years now, mostly just the splitters that may need to be swapped to ones that support above 1Ghz.

 

[sfx2000]

The difference with RG58 vs RG6 is impedance, which will matter with frequency response over range...

Anyways - both should be ok, but going back to terminations, cable quality overall, and splittlers/number of splitters is all key for MOCA to work well...

Found some good guidance here from MOCA Alliance regarding best practices...

https://mocalliance.org/technology/Final_Best-Practices-for-Installation-of-MoCA_170516rev01.pdf

 

[sfx2000]

This document is relevant as well with MOCA 2, 2.5 - esp if one has CATV w/DOCSIS 3.1, that uses one set of bands, and another if one is running satellite over the same cable network...

https://mocalliance.org/MoCA2/specification/MoCA_2.0_and_2.5_Device_RF_Characteristics-160808d.pdf

 

[drinkingbird]

The difference with RG58 vs RG6 is impedance, which will matter with frequency response over range...

Anyways - both should be ok, but going back to terminations, cable quality overall, and splittlers/number of splitters is all key for MOCA to work well...

Found some good guidance here from MOCA Alliance regarding best practices...

https://mocalliance.org/technology/Final_Best-Practices-for-Installation-of-MoCA_170516rev01.pdf

The impedance difference isn't necessarily the issue, but what causes the difference (thinner, less dense dielectric) is. Once you get up near 1Ghz (and especially above 1Ghz with MOCA) it will bleed through the dielectric and cause crosstalk/interference. And of course the conductor is thicker in RG6 which means more conduction with less attenuation/voltage drop.

The other main issue is RG58 very rarely has good shielding, it is often single shield and the braid coverage isn't great, even the dual shield with foil (fairly rare on RG58) is not as good as dual shield RG6. RG6 will typically be Tri or Quad and the braid(s) is much denser, along with two foil shields.

Essentially it can theoretically pass the signals but the attenuation at or above 1Ghz (even 500mhz) is awful, not to mention the interference.

I'd be surprised to see MOCA 2 or 2.5 work well on RG58, I guess a single direct point to point run might get some decent throughput, probably not 2.5 gig, but multiple MOCA, splitters, other signals, that's just not going to work well, if at all.

 

[degrub]

The fact that I did have wired internet for a little bit makes me believe that the splitters are certified, but I can run to the hardware store and grab new ones. The splitter connected to the house line is an Antronix CMDT2106L, and the one connected in the living room is a Commonscope SV-2G, both labeled as 5-1002MHz.

THese may pass some moca signal but more likely will not pass any moca signal. You need a replacements that are certified for MOCA 2.0 on it. Look for HOLLAND brand. there are others, just make sure they say certified for MOCA2. Direct TV Satellite splitters not likely to work, but might. If you go online and search for "MOCA 2 certified splitter", i think you will find some at amazon. Local hardware store - iffy.

This is most of your issue.

The modem has a frequency range of 258MHz-1218MHz. The MOCA modems have a switch on them that allows them to change frequency bands, so I can go either 1125-1625MHz or 1275-1675MHz. Should I leave them as shown in the diagram or should I switch them to the other frequency band?

You will have to switch to HIGH band with the DOCCIS modem using the lower moca bands. You give of 2 of the 5 bands and will be down to 1-1.5 Gbit/s bandwidth ( 3 channels) which will likely give you 1 Gbit/s half duplex at best. Still plenty fast for home use.

This is your other conflict issue if the DOCCIS modem is actually using above 1125 MHz. Log into the modem and find out what bands are being used for UP and DOWN. You can cut and paste and upload here. If it is not, then leave the moca modems in the original setting ( not Hi Band).

If there are any unused ports on the splitter that you install, make sure to get some 75 ohm caps and put them on the open port. Don't by a splitter with more ports than you need if possible as this affects the signal loss (dB) path, particularly the path from outside to your cable modem.

If your DOCCIS modem is NOT using frequencies of 1125 MHz and higher, your existing layout will work with the changes above. You may be restricted in ISP bandwidth in the future, but that may not really matter in most home/small business use cases. Given the splitters in use currently, i suspect this is the case. So you should be good to go.

If your DOCCIS modem is using frequencies above 1125 MHz, you will have to remove the POE filter on the inlet from the street. You won't be able to use a POE filter anywhere on the line to the DOCCIS modem as it will block transmission above 1125 MHz.

Your best bet would be to separate all of the coax using MOCA from the coax line in to the ISP DOCCIS modem. The easiest way to do that is to locate the DOCCIS modem, the router, and the first moca modem all near the incoming splitter. Connect the incoming coax directly to the DOCCIS modem. Then using a moca 2.0 splitter, connect all of the coax lines that you want to run moca on. So if you need three locations, get a 3 way unbalanced moca splitter or a 4 way balanced splitter (cap the unused port), place the moca POE filter on the inlet port and the three coax cables on three of the ports. Connect the moca modem ethernet port to your router lan port. Should work in all locations then.

If you can't relocate, you may have to run an additional coax line to be able to isolate the DOCCIS modem from the rest of the moca coax.

 

[CaptainSTX]

Where would I find a line powered amp in the coax network? I can go spelunking if need be.

It could be anyplace including a crawl space or attic. Don't necessarily need to be near an AC outlet as some AMPs can be powered over coaxial.

Remember seeing a wall wart plugged in with a piece of coaxial cable on it going from wall wart to coaxial jack?

 

[IAVV]

THese may pass some moca signal but more likely will not pass any moca signal. You need a replacements that are certified for MOCA 2.0 on it. Look for HOLLAND brand. there are others, just make sure they say certified for MOCA2. Direct TV Satellite splitters not likely to work, but might. If you go online and search for "MOCA 2 certified splitter", i think you will find some at amazon. Local hardware store - iffy.

This is most of your issue.


You will have to switch to HIGH band with the DOCCIS modem using the lower moca bands. You give of 2 of the 5 bands and will be down to 1-1.5 Gbit/s bandwidth ( 3 channels) which will likely give you 1 Gbit/s half duplex at best. Still plenty fast for home use.

This is your other conflict issue if the DOCCIS modem is actually using above 1125 MHz. Log into the modem and find out what bands are being used for UP and DOWN. You can cut and paste and upload here. If it is not, then leave the moca modems in the original setting ( not Hi Band).

If there are any unused ports on the splitter that you install, make sure to get some 75 ohm caps and put them on the open port. Don't by a splitter with more ports than you need if possible as this affects the signal loss (dB) path, particularly the path from outside to your cable modem.

If your DOCCIS modem is NOT using frequencies of 1125 MHz and higher, your existing layout will work with the changes above. You may be restricted in ISP bandwidth in the future, but that may not really matter in most home/small business use cases. Given the splitters in use currently, i suspect this is the case. So you should be good to go.

If your DOCCIS modem is using frequencies above 1125 MHz, you will have to remove the POE filter on the inlet from the street. You won't be able to use a POE filter anywhere on the line to the DOCCIS modem as it will block transmission above 1125 MHz.

Your best bet would be to separate all of the coax using MOCA from the coax line in to the ISP DOCCIS modem. The easiest way to do that is to locate the DOCCIS modem, the router, and the first moca modem all near the incoming splitter. Connect the incoming coax directly to the DOCCIS modem. Then using a moca 2.0 splitter, connect all of the coax lines that you want to run moca on. So if you need three locations, get a 3 way unbalanced moca splitter or a 4 way balanced splitter (cap the unused port), place the moca POE filter on the inlet port and the three coax cables on three of the ports. Connect the moca modem ethernet port to your router lan port. Should work in all locations then.

If you can't relocate, you may have to run an additional coax line to be able to isolate the DOCCIS modem from the rest of the moca coax.

Partial success!

I got the new splitters, got rid of the POE filter completely, and then switched around the MOCA modems, and the basement has connected. It appears that a part of the problem is that one of these modems is defective (time to complain to ASUS )

So, two of my MOCA modems are working correctly, but the upstairs line is not connecting to the network. I tried connecting the good modems to the upstairs and the basement separately, and it seems that no matter which ones I use the upstairs will not connect. I will have to go spelunking in the walls to see what the issue is. Hopefully its just a bad splitter or AMP and not faulty wiring. I'm going to test the bedroom coax to see if it can connect to that too, which might be another potential solution.

Thank you so much for the great explanations and suggestions, I am very grateful for your time. Slán go fóill agus beannacht Dé leat