What router to choose

[cengoe]

Hello,
I would like to build a mesh system, and looking at asus aimesh.
I looked at different routers but not sure where to start for a main router.
I plan to use one high quality main router and a lower one in mesh, connected through ethernet cable, and my rt-n18u attached as a different ap (no mesh), connected to the router in the basement, later another mesh node replacing it.
I plan to buy something from AX line in the mesh, although nothing at home can currently use it.
We do not use wifi heavily, my pc and work notebook would be on ethernet, so I do not really care about mimo or mu-mimo, for now. I feel im ok with a 2x2.
I do have some shelly relays on wifi though that need to be reliable, even my heating would use it. Any feature that helps my smart devices is a plus, like automatic static ip-s for relays or something.
I would like to use an external drive on usb and printer, so 2 usb-s would be nice.
I never used merlin, im not a customizing type of guy, but if i get something for these, id use it happily.
I looked at different tech specifications, like a86u but im not sure if Id use 1gb ram or a higher frequency soc. Im probably not a power user, so a weaker would suffice.
Any suggestions?
Thank you!

 

[OzarkEdge]

Hello,
I would like to build a mesh system, and looking at asus aimesh.
I looked at different routers but not sure where to start for a main router.
I plan to use one high quality main router and a lower one in mesh, connected through ethernet cable, and my rt-n18u attached as a different ap (no mesh), connected to the router in the basement, later another mesh node replacing it.
I plan to buy something from AX line in the mesh, although nothing at home can currently use it.
We do not use wifi heavily, my pc and work notebook would be on ethernet, so I do not really care about mimo or mu-mimo, for now. I feel im ok with a 2x2.
I do have some shelly relays on wifi though that need to be reliable, even my heating would use it. Any feature that helps my smart devices is a plus, like automatic static ip-s for relays or something.
I would like to use an external drive on usb and printer, so 2 usb-s would be nice.
I never used merlin, im not a customizing type of guy, but if i get something for these, id use it happily.
I looked at different tech specifications, like a86u but im not sure if Id use 1gb ram or a higher frequency soc. Im probably not a power user, so a weaker would suffice.
Any suggestions?
Thank you!

Consider the AX86U or less. Expect better effective WiFi coverage than you might be use to... don't add a node unless you need it. 2x2 is adequate for clients, but you may want more streams if using a wireless backhaul.

Since these days the network is everything, a capable node could be considered a backup router. And there is some logic in stepping up to matching nodes for [initial] simplicity and hoped for similarities/compatibilites. Otherwise, the node is just an AP and/or your previous router pushed out.

My install notes outline a base installation for a perspective, and link to supporting information.

OE

 

[Tech9]

Any suggestions?

Not yet. More information is needed on what internal network speeds you expect to get; what's your ISP line speed, current and expected; what area do you need to cover with Wi-Fi; what the house floor/walls are made of, etc. - all important parts of equipment choice process. I personally wouldn't invest in AiMesh with Asus AX routers. AiMesh is a marketing name for connected access points or repeaters. You are going to pay high price for AX routers and use only parts of them. This is what Asus wants in first place - to sell you more routers. This mostly Asus users forum will help Asus sell you more routers, but the final result may not be the best option for you. Another very important question - what's the budget for this project?

I would like to use an external drive on usb and printer, so 2 usb-s would be nice.

USB external drive - good for light file sharing only. Not recommended and not a NAS replacement.
USB printer connected to the router - may not work at all, depending on printer model and features.

 

[L&LD]

Welcome to the forums @cengoe.

The cost difference between AX routers isn't worth the savings the lessor models offer in the long term.

Current Order of Recommended Routers Late 2021

The RT-AX68U and the RT-AX86U are still the best two routers to consider today. And, depending on the cost at the time of purchase, buying the latter even if it is slightly more expensive is the better value, if you're not planning to upgrade your network infrastructure one or more times again, in the next few years.

Whichever model you decide on (from the link above), I would buy two of them. But I wouldn't open the second one until you've thoroughly tested a single unit and confirmed that in your environment, a second one is needed.

The link below highlights why an AX router is recommended over any AC class router today.

Report - 2x RT-AX68U upgrade over 2x RT-AC86U in wireless backhaul mode


The old routers you have today are best used for your (distant) wired-capable devices in Media Bridge mode. Mixing AX and AC routers, particularly in an AiMesh setup, is asking for issues, needlessly.

Media Bridge Mode


And consider the importance of having a wired backhaul if 2 routers are really needed in an AiMesh configuration. If wiring is an option, do so.

Repeater mode = wireless AiMesh

AiMesh Ideal Placement

 

[cengoe]

Consider the AX86U or less. Expect better effective WiFi coverage than you might be use to... don't add a node unless you need it. 2x2 is adequate for clients, but you may want more streams if using a wireless backhaul.

Since these days the network is everything, a capable node could be considered a backup router. And there is some logic in stepping up to matching nodes for [initial] simplicity and hoped for similarities/compatibilites. Otherwise, the node is just an AP and/or your previous router pushed out.

My install notes outline a base installation for a perspective, and link to supporting information.

OE

Thank you. I will use ethernet backhaul. What would you consider a good target for " AX86U or less", i was definitely considering AX86U or less.

 

[cengoe]

Not yet. More information is needed on what internal network speeds you expect to get; what's your ISP line speed, current and expected; what area do you need to cover with Wi-Fi; what the house floor/walls are made of, etc. - all important parts of equipment choice process. I personally wouldn't invest in AiMesh with Asus AX routers. AiMesh is a marketing name for connected access points or repeaters. You are going to pay high price for AX routers and use only parts of them. This is what Asus wants in first place - to sell you more routers. This mostly Asus users forum will help Asus sell you more routers, but the final result may not be the best option for you. Another very important question - what's the budget for this project?



USB external drive - good for light file sharing only. Not recommended and not a NAS replacement.
USB printer connected to the router - may not work at all, depending on printer model and features.

Thank you. my isp line is 1 Gbit. My walls are brick, but either few or thin in the inside, depending on floor. I plan to cover 2 floors and a basement through wired backhauls. 1 floor is around 70 m2 / 750 ft2.
As i do not own any AX devices yet, im expecting reliable AC speeds, but I do not care about speed that much. I do not even know what to expect.
on AiMesh: when im looking for a mesh system, im looking for controlled client routing / roaming, and i understand that aimesh provides this.
If there is another forum that might help me, please advise.
I was considering $400 a budget for the two routers (more expensive as main router and cheaper as node), but if im looking at something impressive and long term, i might go higher, like 600.

Why is light file sharing not recommended on router?

 

[cengoe]

Welcome to the forums @cengoe.

The cost difference between AX routers isn't worth the savings the lessor models offer in the long term.

Current Order of Recommended Routers Late 2021

The RT-AX68U and the RT-AX86U are still the best two routers to consider today. And, depending on the cost at the time of purchase, buying the latter even if it is slightly more expensive is the better value, if you're not planning to upgrade your network infrastructure one or more times again, in the next few years.

Whichever model you decide on (from the link above), I would buy two of them. But I wouldn't open the second one until you've thoroughly tested a single unit and confirmed that in your environment, a second one is needed.

The link below highlights why an AX router is recommended over any AC class router today.

Report - 2x RT-AX68U upgrade over 2x RT-AC86U in wireless backhaul mode


The old routers you have today are best used for your (distant) wired-capable devices in Media Bridge mode. Mixing AX and AC routers, particularly in an AiMesh setup, is asking for issues, needlessly.

Media Bridge Mode


And consider the importance of having a wired backhaul if 2 routers are really needed in an AiMesh configuration. If wiring is an option, do so.

Repeater mode = wireless AiMesh

AiMesh Ideal Placement

Thank you. 2xAX86U is $600 around here, i really need to believe it is a heavenly setup to buy 2. I planned to buy 1 more expensive and 1 cheaper. What issues can that bring? lets assume I buy the cheapest AX router and use it as aimesh node next to a ax68u.
I do not plan to use wireless backhaul, and plan to use my old router as a wired AP.
I do plan to use wired connections, but plan to connect to the aimesh node (working notebook) and router (home/gaming pc).
Thank you

 

[L&LD]

So what does 2x RT-AX68U cost?

What are your ISP speeds?

How big is your home?

If you do need 2x RT-AX86U's, it would be money well spent.

 

[cengoe]

So what does 2x RT-AX68U cost?

What are your ISP speeds?

How big is your home?

If you do need 2x RT-AX86U's, it would be money well spent.

Thank you.
my isp line is 1 Gbit (i measured 425Mbit/s down / 325Mbit/s up right now on wired) .I plan to cover 2 floors and a basement . 1 floor is around 70 m2 / 750 ft2.
2xA68u is little less than $400.
would you advise buying 2xAX68U instead of one AX86u and a cheaper one for node?

 

[OzarkEdge]

Thank you. I will use ethernet backhaul. What would you consider a good target for " AX86U or less", i was definitely considering AX86U or less.

I can recommend the AX86U... one wireless router may be all you need depending on your layout. See post #4 for experience with other models.

OE

 

[thiggins]

As @Tech9 pointed out, there is no need to buy anything "mesh", because you are using Ethernet to connect access points (AP) together.

With brick walls, you will need more APs, especially if you plan to primarily use 5 GHz. So inexpensive 2x2 APs (or routers converted to APs) will work fine.

Some have suggested TP-Link Omada or Ubiquiti UniFi. NETGEAR also makes a small-business AP system, but it requires a subscription.

This roundup review is quite dated now, but it will give you an idea of vendors in the low-cost AP space.

2x2 AC Access Point Roundup - SmallNetBuilder

SmallNetBuilder provides networking and IT news, reviews, help and information for professional and prosumer home, SOHO and small business users.

www.smallnetbuilder.com

 

[cengoe]

As @Tech9 pointed out, there is no need to buy anything "mesh", because you are using Ethernet to connect access points (AP) together.

With brick walls, you will need more APs, especially if you plan to primarily use 5 GHz. So inexpensive 2x2 APs (or routers converted to APs) will work fine.

Some have suggested TP-Link Omada or Ubiquiti UniFi. NETGEAR also makes a small-business AP system, but it requires a subscription.

This roundup review is quite dated now, but it will give you an idea of vendors in the low-cost AP space.

2x2 AC Access Point Roundup - SmallNetBuilder

SmallNetBuilder provides networking and IT news, reviews, help and information for professional and prosumer home, SOHO and small business users.

www.smallnetbuilder.com

Not sure I understand. When I say mesh, i mean a system that controls/manages the clients connections and provide seamless trasition from one node to another, I dont mind calling it in a different way, but thats what Im looking for. plain APs do not provide this, are they?
(accepting that plain wired APs might be more stable and much cheaper is a different question)

 

[Tech9]

when im looking for a mesh system, im looking for controlled client routing / roaming, and i understand that aimesh provides this.

No, it doesn't. This is what Asus makes you believe in advertisements, but in fact AiMesh roaming is exactly the same as roaming with Asus router and Asus router in repeater or access point mode. Roaming is mostly client decision and since you use the same radios with the same technology - the clients behave the same way. With different generation/radio technology Asus routers your clients will perhaps prefer one of the routers and stick to it.

f there is another forum that might help me, please advise.

In Wireless Buying Advice subforum you may find different options for multi-AP systems.

With brick walls, you will need more APs,

This is exactly what I would do - centrally managed AP's on low power, perhaps 3x will do in your place. TP-Link Omada is the lowest cost good quality small business solution. The AP's you are looking at are EAP225v3 (2-stream) or EAP245v3 (3-stream) AC Wave 2. EAP225 come in wall plate and outdoor form as well. You need PoE switch to power the AP's for clean installation - TL-SG108PE is 8-port smart switch with 4-port PoE. You need a router too - matching low-cost Omada SDN router is ER605. The Omada network controller is OC200 and it can be PoE powered too - you need it for complete Omada features set. What you get is centrally managed multi-AP system with 802.11k/v/r roaming technologies, per AP Tx power control for fine tuning (not available in AiMesh), native VLAN's support for better network segmentation (not available in home routers), remote management, network statistics, network-wide guest network with multiple login options (kind of available in AiMesh, work in progress), better network expansion and upgrade options. When you need AX - just change the AP's. When you need to cover your back yard - get an outdoor Omada AP and integrate it into your system.

This approach depends on your network skills and the budget, but Omada is pretty easy to build and not that expensive. Not much different than home routers. AP's are better quality Qualcomm hardware. The roaming is quicker than AiMesh, but there is no "seamless transition" in existence - it still needs few seconds when switching between AP's. You can run it in mesh configuration with wireless backhaul, but you already have wires. It's an available option though, good for an outdoor AP. ER605 and TL-SG108PE are the same size units in sturdy metal housing. If you need more LAN ports, add TL-SG108E - the cheaper switch with no PoE. Stacked on top of each other makes a nice looking little cube of networking gear. Expected wired performance - full Gigabit. Expected wireless performance - about 500Mbps to common 2-stream AC client (if the AP's are wired).

 

[thiggins]

Not sure I understand. When I say mesh, i mean a system that controls/manages the clients connections and provide seamless trasition from one node to another, I dont mind calling it in a different way, but thats what Im looking for. plain APs do not provide this, are they?
(accepting that plain wired APs might be more stable and much cheaper is a different question)

That is not a "mesh" system. Wi-Fi "mesh" systems use Wi-Fi to connect multiple access points back to a single AP that hosts the network connection.

The myth of mesh systems providing "seamless transition/roaming" was made up by consumer Wi-Fi product makers to spur sales of mesh Wi-Fi systems. It's apparently been very effective, since it's a common there here in SNBForums.

Any system composed of multiple APs can only try to influence STA roaming behavior. The nature of Wi-Fi is that clients are in control of where they connect and when they decide to change that connection. APs supporting 802.11k and v can provide information about neighboring APs (11k) and even try to make the STA move (11v transition management request). But, in the end, if the STA likes where it is, smart APs will leave it alone. Forcing a disassociation usually leads to disconnected STA.

 

[cengoe]

That is not a "mesh" system. Wi-Fi "mesh" systems use Wi-Fi to connect multiple access points back to a single AP that hosts the network connection.

The myth of mesh systems providing "seamless transition/roaming" was made up by consumer Wi-Fi product makers to spur sales of mesh Wi-Fi systems. It's apparently been very effective, since it's a common there here in SNBForums.

Any system composed of multiple APs can only try to influence STA roaming behavior. The nature of Wi-Fi is that clients are in control of where they connect and when they decide to change that connection. APs supporting 802.11k and v can provide information about neighboring APs (11k) and even try to make the STA move (11v transition management request). But, in the end, if the STA likes where it is, smart APs will leave it alone. Forcing a disassociation usually leads to disconnected STA.

Thank you for the explanation.
Maybe I exaggerated with the usage of "seamless", what Id like to fix in my network is the struggle my phone has when the wifi that was next to me 1 minute ago is now blocked by a concrete floor and is basicly non-reachable, and my phone is istill trying to work on their relationship. But its dead. I know, phone knows, the basement connection knows - still they fight for it.
So i understand routers can only try to influence client roaming - the question is then - which is the system that not only tries but succeeds (more or less).

 

[thiggins]

But its dead. I know, phone knows, the basement connection knows - still they fight for it.
So i understand routers can only try to influence client roaming - the question is then - which is the system that not only tries but succeeds (more or less).

Yeah, that isn't "seamless" by any stretch. You just want your phone to change APs. Unless your phone's roaming logic is totally broken, it still must be detecting some 2.4 GHz signal. If you power off the now "unreachable" AP, does your phone still not switch to the closer AP?
What happens if you shut off the 2.4 GHz radio(s) on the APs?

If the phone still won't switch, the only thing you can do is set up separate SSIDs on the APs and manually switch networks. Or buy a new phone.

What make/model phone is it?

 

[Tech9]

what Id like to fix in my network is the struggle my phone has when the wifi that was next to me 1 minute ago is now blocked by a concrete floor

Multiple low-power AP's with some overlap is your best option to fix that, but you may not fit the $400 budget.

 

[cengoe]

No, it doesn't. This is what Asus makes you believe in advertisements, but in fact AiMesh roaming is exactly the same as roaming with Asus router and Asus router in repeater or access point mode. Roaming is mostly client decision and since you use the same radios with the same technology - the clients behave the same way. With different generation/radio technology Asus routers your clients will perhaps prefer one of the routers and stick to it.



In Wireless Buying Advice subforum you may find different options for multi-AP systems.



This is exactly what I would do - centrally managed AP's on low power, perhaps 3x will do in your place. TP-Link Omada is the lowest cost good quality small business solution. The AP's you are looking at are EAP225v3 (2-stream) or EAP245v3 (3-stream) AC Wave 2. EAP225 come in wall plate and outdoor form as well. You need PoE switch to power the AP's for clean installation - TL-SG108PE is 8-port smart switch with 4-port PoE. You need a router too - matching low-cost Omada SDN router is ER605. The Omada network controller is OC200 and it can be PoE powered too - you need it for complete Omada features set. What you get is centrally managed multi-AP system with 802.11k/v/r roaming technologies, per AP Tx power control for fine tuning (not available in AiMesh), native VLAN's support for better network segmentation (not available in home routers), remote management, network statistics, network-wide guest network with multiple login options (kind of available in AiMesh, work in progress), better network expansion and upgrade options. When you need AX - just change the AP's. When you need to cover your back yard - get an outdoor Omada AP and integrate it into your system.

This approach depends on your network skills and the budget, but Omada is pretty easy to build and not that expensive. Not much different than home routers. AP's are better quality Qualcomm hardware. The roaming is quicker than AiMesh, but there is no "seamless transition" in existence - it still needs few seconds when switching between AP's. You can run it in mesh configuration with wireless backhaul, but you already have wires. It's an available option though, good for an outdoor AP. ER605 and TL-SG108PE are the same size units in sturdy metal housing. If you need more LAN ports, add TL-SG108E - the cheaper switch with no PoE. Stacked on top of each other makes a nice looking little cube of networking gear. Expected wired performance - full Gigabit. Expected wireless performance - about 500Mbps to common 2-stream AC client (if the AP's are wired).

Thanks a lot for the details. Very helpful.
I would be very happy with "a few seconds" of switching, if its happening under a reasonable treshold without my initiation. Does this mean that if i could configure my phone to switch between a specific list of networks (in this case, with the same ssid), under a specific quality level of wifi connections, than my phone did all that is possible in this area of roaming. maybe this configuration already exists out there in a form of an app or something.
The Omada system looks great, sounds like a lego set. Im not very skilled in networks, although i should be as I have some smart relays, and those bring some headache sometimes. Do i understand correctly that the switch is needed for the poe only?
vlan would be nice too, and the flexible extension as well- actually that was what brought me towards asus (incremental extension), but this setup indeed sounds like a more futureproof direction.

what i struggle with though is the lack of ethernet ports on these APs - currently there is only one cable to the upper floor where I need cable connection to my working notebook - and need cable connection to the AP itself. so id need to connect to the AP with ethernet. but I guess thats a cabling problem for me to solve.

 

[cengoe]

Yeah, that isn't "seamless" by any stretch. You just want your phone to change APs. Unless your phone's roaming logic is totally broken, it still must be detecting some 2.4 GHz signal. If you power off the now "unreachable" AP, does your phone still not switch to the closer AP?
What happens if you shut off the 2.4 GHz radio(s) on the APs?

If the phone still won't switch, the only thing you can do is set up separate SSIDs on the APs and manually switch networks. Or buy a new phone.

What make/model phone is it?

Its an LG G8s. it would indeed switch if the unreachable were turned off, so its just my phone trusts these wifi networks much more than it should. even my 4g is much better than a non-working wifi.
so you get my problem trusting my clients with roaming....

 

[Tech9]

Does this mean that if i could configure my phone to switch between a specific list of networks

One SSID, if you prefer band steering. I personally run separate SSID's for 2.4GHz and 5GHz for more control*. For best results you have to reset the clients connections and re-connect to the new multi-AP system. In Omada setup, the network controller takes care of roaming technologies.

Do i understand correctly that the switch is needed for the poe only?

In my hardware example above it provides 4x PoE ports for AP's power + 4x extra ports for wired connections. The router (ER605) has 5x more ports for LAN/WAN connections (it has multi-WAN capabilities as well). PoE AP's use a single cable for data and power. Otherwise you have to use PoE injectors to power the AP's. PoE switch is the right way to do it. What you get is 4x PoE ports (let's assume 3x PoE AP's + OC200 controller**), 8x LAN ports for your wired devices, 1x WAN port to your modem. I believe, a good start for small home network.

* - I don't run Omada, but similar multi-AP AC Wave 2 system.
** - TL-SG108PE switch has max 57W PoE budget. EAP245v3 (for example) are 12.3W each, OC200 is about 6W. Total - up to 42.9W.